Why are we chasing the amp in the room sound?

I think it all depends on what you want to hear, the psychological implications that has on how you play, and the overall result both for the FOH mix, a monitor mix, or a mix of a recording.

With a modeller, we are simulating reality. We can simulate the whole reality (modelled amp, cab, close mic and room mic), or any combination of simulated reality and reality itself (eg real amp, load box into IRs, or modelled preamp into real power amp and real cab etc).

If you want to hear the amp in the room sound, that's probably because the acoustic environment you're playing in calls for your ears to want to hear it...ie if your sound is being mixed with other sounds that also sound like they're in a room.

Being a performing musican and also an FOH or monitor engineer really helps you understand this in each possible scenario.

If you're on IEMs and all guitars are direct with just drums and vocals being the only acoustically audible sources on a stage, then you'll probably want to hear a close mic IR and room mic IR (ideally in stereo) so that your ears can mix what they hear from the drums in the room with the simulated room for your guitar.

Or let's say you're running a modeller into a full range cab without IEMs. How that will sound to you will also really depend on how it mixes with everything else on stage. For example, an FR cab on stage might mix better with a DI'd drum machine for an electronic production where no acoustic drums are audible, whereas for a rock production, that FR cab might blend better with a monitor feed of close mic'd drums where the performer is on huge stage and very far away from the acoustic drums.

Something that becomes very obvious for FOH is how a "reality mismatch" can work against the overall impact of a mix. A classic example is where you have a band with real amps on stage pushing air, plus a backing track that contains pre-recorded guitars that are already processed from the mix they came from. Blending those recorded guitars with the live guitars through cabs never quite works because they sound like they're coming from somewhere else, and not the stage itself. Much better to get DI's of those recorded guitars and run them out to a real amp on stage so that they are pushing the same air as the live guitars.

If all the live guitars are direct however, then the recorded guitars will sound like they're coming from the same place and the guitar mix will be more cohesive.

Something i find amusing in the FOH engineer world is this trend of asking guitarists to turn down more and more. This is of course genre dependent, but for rock music, a good understanding of FOH mixing as a form of sound reinforcement should guide that engineer and the band to balance the amps to the acoustic (un mic'd) drums and the vocals coming through the monitors, with FOH turned off. If the music is arranged well so that the vocal range of the singer can sit well with the band, then those amps should be set to a loudness where they have a pleasing, cranked tone and response, but don't drown out the acoustic drums. So here, the amp in the room sound actually becomes a mixing tool for both monitor and foh mix, because if the amp sounds good and balanced in the room with the drums in the room, the mixes will be so much easier. Every time i've mixed bands that are balanced before the PA is switched on, the mix always mixes itself.


For recording, wanting the amp in the room sound or not really depends on the sonic aesthetic you're going for. You might want everything to sound tight and claustrophobic, so not having any room sound might work well if the drums are also super dry without any room mics. For tracking with a modeller, feeling like you're pushing air might make you play better.

Apart from the feeling of pushing air, the amp in the room sound is also a major factor in the overall tone itself. The midrange you hear at room mic distance from an amp is totally different to the midrange response of a close mic.

Another interesting way to look at the amp in the room sound is to think about how visuals can be manipulated with augmented reality or projection mapping. So, for example, you could have an acoustically very dead stage where a real amp and cab might end up sounding too isolated, so you would then want to project the sensation of a different acoustic space onto that dead stage, hence the need for either a fully simulated amp in the room sound, or perhaps a combination of the real amp and cab close mic'd plus a room IR blended into the on stage monitoring.

The best way to find out if you want the real thing or a simulation of an amp in the room is to be in the room, run a real amp into a cab and also a loadbox into an IR and into a full range cab, and toggle between either the traditional cab or the full range cab. Whichever of these sounds best in the context you're in should give you the answer you're looking for.
 
Call me crazy but I’m really enjoying playing with inears or my semi-open headphones AND my frfr monitors at the same time... really gives me that “stage” feeling of the frfr sound blending with my monitor mix
 
Distant mic IRs can help give the tone a less "direct" sound, but it's not necessarily going to change the room feel in the way you might expect. They work very well for playing through headphones or when recording though.

The "in the room" sound is very closely tied to the dispersion characteristics of the speakers you are using. FRFR cabs and studio monitors almost always have much wider and more even dispersion patterns compared to your typical super beamy guitar cab, especially in the highs . They are going to project sound into the room differently, producing a different pattern of room reflections.

One way to think about it is comparing it to light. A typical studio monitor has a very wide and even dispersion pattern. That would be sort of like table lamp casting an even glow over a wide portion of a dark room. A guitar cab on the other hand is usually very directional in the highs. That would be more like a spot light casting a narrow beam into a dark room. Even if both lamps emit the same amount of light, the overall amount of illumination in the room would still likely be quite different between the two since the way the light bounces into the room is quite different. The same sort of thing happens with the high end from a guitar cab vs a studio monitor or FRFR cab. They may both be emitting the same amount of sound energy into the room at a given frequency, but they are projecting it in a different pattern and the resulting reflections would sound different to the listener in the room.

The louder you crank things up, the more saturated the room tends to become with reflections and the less you tend to notice the dispersion differences.
 
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It’s that multi-dimensional sound effect of the frequencies dispersion by the room space & by objects in the room.

The highs get pleasingly tamed and even walking around the room or into a hallway or listening from another room the sound is ...wow!

Saying that ....I agree with the op.

Since my first Fractal processor (ultra) ...I ultimately realized my aim is actually for recorded gtr tones and gtr tones I’ve crafted myself for FOH.....the audience.

At home ...with the latest FAS improvements...with or without some AITR ..I’m happy!

FW15 rocks!
 
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@James Nash
I'd love to try one of the Barefaced Audio cabs. The video they did with Rob Chapman was really cool.

Cool! I've seen those, but never had a chance to try. I have a Forte 3D 1x12 which is another take on the dispersal idea. It sounds great, but still a very different animal from a typical PA or FRFR cab.

As others have noted, I think the biggest factor is what's comfortable/familiar. I've spent so much time either using headphones or IEMs that I prefer that. A mic'd cabinet (or model) direct into my ears sounds great to me, but it's very different from, say, the stage sound at a small club. So if that's your usual jam, there's an adjustment period... often, I think folks attribute that to modeling or analog vs. digital when it's really more a matter of cabinet/reflection vs. microphone.
 
Backline 212 with Axe running through tube power amp mic'd up with an e906.
Loud, nasty and full of attitude. Wouldnt have it any other way at the moment.
Having that stage volume that can match my drummer just makes everything sound more cohesive on stage and it actually translates well to FOH. I guess you could say I'm old school with my set up, but I love it, and we have a great sou d at all our gigs.
One day I may move to IR's but I love my sound the way it is.
 
I love the consistency and simplicity of Axe/FRFR. I find it so much less stressful than wondering if my valve amp is going to smile on me today. I actually can’t even remember what ‘AITR’ sounds like to be honest!
 
IMHO it depends on the type of amplification used for other instruments and the venue.
This is my experience:

At some point a few years ago I bought 2 Atomic CLRs and was blown away by the tones I was getting and the even dispersion pattern, so much so that I decided to sell my 2x12 cab and power amp.

After some time and a few gigs though I started to realize I was struggling to "glue" with other instruments, simply because we only play small venues without a proper PA, so the drum is unmic'd, the bass and keyboard have their own amps and basically everything had an "in-the-room" sound except my guitar.
That always gave the impression my guitar was almost a recorded track compared to the liveliness of other instruments.

I experimented with tons of IRs of all kinds but never really got rid of that feeling, so I bought another cab and power amp and now I play with those plus a bit of signal in the CLRs for some stereo spread, best of both worlds and couldn't be happier.

Maybe I just didn't find the right IR or maybe I could get there with a bit of tweaking, but the fact is that a real cab is pretty much plug and play for me and all I need to tweak is basic amp controls, just like dealing with a real amp.

PS: the dispersion pattern of a real cab can be easily corrected by installing "Mitchell donuts" (google it) in front of your speakers.
 
I am chasing a amp in the room FEEL but with a digital, recorded sound which works really nice with FRFR. Having the guitar not blasted into my face from the front from a stereo signal but rather having it coming from a specific point in the room in a specific direction, just as you would have with a cab.
 
There is something undeniably satisfying about turning a stack up way to loud and just be immersed in the massive volume. It is difficult to achive quite the same feeling with a modeler.
I find it easier to get that immersed feeling with the FX3 hooked up to my QSC K10.2s mounted on speaker stands. Stand in the middle and be amazed!
 
If you want the in the room sound, run Farfield IRs in parallel.

The bottom line: when Fractal products came out, the complaint was they sounded too polished and not enough like an amp in the room, even though the stated goal was final to tape tone. It didn’t matter what Fractal wanted, customers vote with their dollars, so overtime, the units have had to evolve to what the customers demanded.

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I want consistency. Using a room as part of my sound cannot be consistent since all rooms are different.
FRFR wedge (CLR) right behind me, standing in the beam is consistent from gig to gig no matter the room.
I love how it sounds and would not go back to something blasting off axis needing to tweak for each different venue.
When I play with tube amp guys I think, "yuck"...boxy, honky sounding cab...always futzing for 20 minutes and still not happy...no thanks.
 
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