Axe Fx III - FM3 preset portability. Bug?

[Lohengrin]

The use of a common engine between the AFIII and the FM3 was one of the most interesting features of the FM3 for me. I expected to quickly share presets between my live and studio setups. I have spent a couple of months creating presets with the FM3 at the rehearsal room to the point of feeling comfortable enough to gig with it. I then imported those presets into the AFIII and they where completely off. I'll say in advance it was not a matter of the listening setup nor volume. It was really a very, very, very different sound, with lots of undesirable bass and treble.

I realized that the preset was not ported correctly into the AFIII. Specifically, the low and high cuts in the Tone section of the Drive block I specified in FM3 edit, were reset in the AFIII to 0 and 20KHz. Inspecting the original exported .syx file with FracTool showed the parameters where still there. Once I tuned those, things where much better. There was a drift, but it was minor and maybe due to IR length or whatever other advanced parameters that did not make it to the FM3.

So... is there currently a bug into the way files are exported/imported between FM3 and AFIII? If not, how far can we expect both devices to be aligned when the FM3 ramps up?

 

[wcfieldskx]

FWIW - I've never had any luck importing any III presets in to the FM3 and actually having them sound good or even work properly....so yeah, dunno. That was a selling point for me in buying the FM3 so a bit disappointing in that sense.

 

[biskitboy]

I recently exported my main preset over and it worked perfectly. However, I could see there being issues with the drive blocks because of the modeling changes between the two units.

 

[Adinfinitum]

I don't believe the firmware between the two are identical yet - at least for the blocks that are in both units.

 

[luckymethod]

The use of a common engine between the AFIII and the FM3 was one of the most interesting features of the FM3 for me. I expected to quickly share presets between my live and studio setups.

I just filed a bug to that effect, there's apparently quite a few inconsistencies in the way the presets are parsed that lead to things not quite working out of the box. Hopefully it gets better.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I had a bit of weirdness importing the Rockman preset that @2112 made for FM3. Ended up saving the blocks to the block library and building it from scratch. Control switches were taking 2 - 3 seconds to move their connected modifiers from the min to the max. It was like watching something in slow motion....

 

[chris]

The use of a common engine between the AFIII and the FM3 was one of the most interesting features of the FM3 for me. I expected to quickly share presets between my live and studio setups. I have spent a couple of months creating presets with the FM3 at the rehearsal room to the point of feeling comfortable enough to gig with it. I then imported those presets into the AFIII and they where completely off. I'll say in advance it was not a matter of the listening setup nor volume. It was really a very, very, very different sound, with lots of undesirable bass and treble.

I realized that the preset was not ported correctly into the AFIII. Specifically, the low and high cuts in the Tone section of the Drive block I specified in FM3 edit, were reset in the AFIII to 0 and 20KHz. Inspecting the original exported .syx file with FracTool showed the parameters where still there. Once I tuned those, things where much better. There was a drift, but it was minor and maybe due to IR length or whatever other advanced parameters that did not make it to the FM3.

So... is there currently a bug into the way files are exported/imported between FM3 and AFIII? If not, how far can we expect both devices to be aligned when the FM3 ramps up?

the drive blocks between the Axe3 and FM3 are different. if that was the only place it was wrong, it makes sense as the parameters are not exactly the same right now.

 

[luckymethod]

the drive blocks between the Axe3 and FM3 are different. if that was the only place it was wrong, it makes sense as the parameters are not exactly the same right now.

controllers don't work perfectly either.

 

[chris]

controllers don't work perfectly either.

Like what?

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Like what?

Control switches taking 2 - 3 seconds to switch state, as if moving a controller pedal slowly from one end to the other. The Rockman emulator preset that Leon made for FM3 did that on my AFX3 when I added control switches to the preset. Thankfully I was able to save the blocks to the block library and build my own from scratch and things worked right....

 

[austinbuddy]

@Lohengrin - Directionally, for now at least, you are better off dialing the presets you want in on the FM3 first, then using Axe-III Edit's Manage Presets tool to import them from your saved FM3 bank into your Axe-Fx III, rather that the other direction. That's how I did the LiveGold tonepack. Plus, using this process, you will not use too much CPU on FM3 version, compared with having too many effects /CPU overloads when imported in from an Axe-Fx III version.

For now, understand that I believe the FM3 does NOT (yet?) have Fractal "Ultra-Res" cab processing in the firmware, but the Axe-Fx III does. So, given it's bigger CPU power - for the same FM3 preset on an Axe-Fx III you will get a different and "bigger" bass response from the Cab on the III than on the FM3, at least under existing firmwares.

The firmwares are different for the units but the tones are very close if you monitor an A/B of the same preset sound on both units right -- you have to listen to them A/B at EXACTLY the same signal levels else your ear will tell you the tones are wider apart than they really are. I did all of this myself. It's very subtle, but IMHO they are sounding mostly the same for the same exact preset settings, putting aside the Cab Ultra-Res effect on the Axe-Fx III that makes the bottom end a little bigger sounding.

As others have said, if you use higher than firmware 13.x+ on the Axe-Fx III, then some of your imported drive blocks from FM3 presets will be different and need to be adjusted as well.

Also -- don't use the freeware FracTool to try and "convert" the presets between units -- that wasn't working right this summer, although I am sure the freeware author @AlGrenadine will have that fixed soon (if not already). Hope this helps -- just a head's up!

 

[Lohengrin]

Thanks everyone for the answers!

@Lohengrin
As others have said, if you use higher than firmware 13.x+ on the Axe-Fx III, then some of your imported drive blocks from FM3 presets will be different and need to be adjusted as well.

the drive blocks between the Axe3 and FM3 are different. if that was the only place it was wrong, it makes sense as the parameters are not exactly the same right now.

I recently exported my main preset over and it worked perfectly. However, I could see there being issues with the drive blocks because of the modeling changes between the two units.

Yes, that's exactly what I thought when I found the discrepancy in the drive block. However, that's also exactly why I said this could be potentially called "bug": I expect drive blocks in the AFIII and FM3 to sound different due to different algorithms, that's not a problem, but what I found was that two perfectly similar parameters were not imported correctly.

@Lohengrin - Directionally, for now at least, you are better off dialing the presets you want in on the FM3 first, then using Axe-III Edit's Manage Presets tool to import them from your saved FM3 bank into your Axe-Fx III, rather that the other direction. That's how I did the LiveGold tonepack. Plus, using this process, you will not use too much CPU on FM3 version, compared with having too many effects /CPU overloads when imported in from an Axe-Fx III version.

The firmwares are different for the units but the tones are very close if you monitor an A/B of the same preset sound on both units right -- you have to listen to them A/B at EXACTLY the same signal levels else your ear will tell you the tones are wider apart than they really are. I did all of this myself. It's very subtle, but IMHO they are sounding mostly the same for the same exact preset settings, putting aside the Cab Ultra-Res effect on the Axe-Fx III that makes the bottom end a little bigger sounding.

Thanks for the detailed answer! This is exactly my experience as well and that was why I spent time with the FM3 for my live presets and not the other way around. Once I adjusted low and high cuts in the drive block everything was in the same ballpark sound.

However, as in the future I do not expect the FM3 firmware to feature every algorithm update in the AFIII, I was just wondering if preset compatibility is somehow a feature Fractal is willing to support, or just a "consequence" of similar products that will be degrading as firmwares depart.

 

[chris]

but what I found was that two perfectly similar parameters were not imported correctly.

i think those parameters are not exactly the same between the FM3 and Axe3. that's why they didn't transfer correctly. i believe one is 0 - 10 and the other is in Hz or something similar. that difference means it's not the exact same parameter.

i think the Drive changes were meant to be ported over a while ago, but the focus turned to USB issues and took some time to fix. there are still some issues for some customers.

the concept of the Axe3 platform was for the FM3 to follow suit more closely than before. we're only in Firmware 1.xx of the FM3, so there is a lot more to go.

having one or two parameters in the drive block not sync compared to all the other blocks and parameters available when transferring presets may not be the indicator of "consequence" of degrading products. i think it's just the start of the FM3 firmware and we'll see more applied to it in no time.

here's discussion of the difference: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/low-cut-not-in-hz.165632/#post-1988077

 

[Moke]

Scene controller values and Envelope controller Low and High cut values are not included.

 

[Lohengrin]

the concept of the Axe3 platform was for the FM3 to follow suit more closely than before. we're only in Firmware 1.xx of the FM3, so there is a lot more to go.

having one or two parameters in the drive block not sync compared to all the other blocks and parameters available when transferring presets may not be the indicator of "consequence" of degrading products. i think it's just the start of the FM3 firmware and we'll see more applied to it in no time.

I have to deeply apologize if I sounded rough or ranting somehow. I was not by any means wanting to express disapointment, I just wanted to clarify if it is possible to count on easy preset transfer in the future. English is not my mother tongue, I didn't want to mean "degrading products" (if anything, with Fractal it is the exact opposite!), nor suggest that the FM3 will fade (as you say, it has a long road ahead!). What I really wanted to ask was if preset compatibility was a side effect of a common initial firmware, and then this compatibility will be fading as firmwares diverge.

Again, sorry if it sounded rude somehow.

 

[chris]

I have to deeply apologize if I sounded rough or ranting somehow. I was not by any means wanting to express disapointment, I just wanted to clarify if it is possible to count on easy preset transfer in the future. English is not my mother tongue, I didn't want to mean "degrading products" (if anything, with Fractal it is the exact opposite!), nor suggest that the FM3 will fade (as you say, it has a long road ahead!). What I really wanted to ask was if preset compatibility was a side effect of a common initial firmware, and then this compatibility will be fading as firmwares diverge.

Again, sorry if it sounded rude somehow.

didn’t sound rude at all. just replying to what was posted.

 

[lauke-lux]

What I need the FM3 for is not tons of effects, but integration of ultrares cabs is a must imho. Is there any chance that will be the case ?

 

[Lohengrin]

didn’t sound rude at all. just replying to what was posted.

Thanks! Just in case... flames are high lately with anything FM3 related

 

[tgunn]

I ran into this as well. Took a chance and copied my main presets from the axe3 to the fm3 and went straight to rehearsal after basically doing a line check Wasn't too terrible, but definitely wasn't the same as on the Axe3.

So I rebuilt the patches from scratch on the fm3 and am getting great results. In fact going through the patches this way again has overall improved them.

One thing though that I'm curious about. When I copied the patches over, the CPU level was quite high and I threw out a couple of blocks to make things run. When I built the same patches up again from a blank page, I could actually fit all the blocks I wanted and strangely did not run into the same limit. It could be that there's something I'm forgetting about, but has anyone else experienced this?

 

[chris]

I ran into this as well. Took a chance and copied my main presets from the axe3 to the fm3 and went straight to rehearsal after basically doing a line check Wasn't too terrible, but definitely wasn't the same as on the Axe3.

So I rebuilt the patches from scratch on the fm3 and am getting great results. In fact going through the patches this way again has overall improved them.

One thing though that I'm curious about. When I copied the patches over, the CPU level was quite high and I threw out a couple of blocks to make things run. When I built the same patches up again from a blank page, I could actually fit all the blocks I wanted and strangely did not run into the same limit. It could be that there's something I'm forgetting about, but has anyone else experienced this?

you may have initially loaded blocks from scratch on lower CPU use types/settings.