Struggling with Tones!

gspencer26

Member
Hi guys,

I’ve been using Fractal gear since 2012-ish. My main rig now is a AXE3 into a matrix power amp to real cabs.. I love it about 90% of the time. My gain presets sound like a mix of Whitesnake and Ratt tones. And they sound awesome running it this way.

I really struggle with getting it to sound good going direct to FOH however. We play tons of gigs and each place has a different system. What is the best way to dial in FOH tones? I want to have the ability to run direct as some places there is no room for more than the rack on stage. I feel it sounds almost like a buzz-saw when I go direct, but I’ve seen countless other videos of guys playing direct with them and they sound great. WTF!! It’s definitely user error. Any suggestions? I’ve tried using headphones but it sounds even worse. I’ve tried programming through Presonus Air 15 Top speakers.
 
do you have Cab sims turned on when going direct?

did you find an appropriate IR in the cab block to use?
 
Yes and I guess yes, but there are so many. How would you know which ones are superior and sound great FOH?
you'd have to plug into a full range speaker/system and hear them. just like any other gear, you'd have to spend some time working with the settings/selections to find one you like.

some people make an IR of their own cab and use that. also use the High Cut and Low Cut in the cab block to make it sound how you want.
 
Need more info on what you have tried. Maybe post a preset for others to check out.

For many, it comes down to expectations and what you are used to. You have to get used to hearing a mic'd guitar tone coming at you while playing. This is really hard/impossible for some. They listen to the direct sound recorded, and think that it sounds great. Then play through the exact same setup and think that it sounds awful because it doesn't sound like an 'amp in the room'.
 
How are you monitoring your signal when you run direct to FOH? When you run direct you are recreating the signal from a mic on a guitar cab in another room, monitored through whatever speaker you are using. It's a much different sound than a live guitar cab next to you.

Anyway, here is the process that should get you started running direct.
  1. Add a cab block right after the amp block.
  2. Find a cab model closest to your real cab on this list: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cabinet_models_list.
  3. On the cab block, choose two IRs of the cab you chose in step 2, start with a 57 and 121 which is a studio classic combination and usually works out of the box with very little tweaking.
  4. Pan both IRs center so you get the full sound of both mics together.
  5. In the preamp section on the cab block I usually set the low cut to 100hz and high cut around 10k. These just help get rid of frequencies that don't need to be there for FOH.
 
Are there any killer presets on the exchange I could use for reference of if it’s me or the setup? The main way I run my rig is killer, and I get compliments all the time on my tone. But I’m just never satisfied with how it’s sounded direct and I’ve spent hours and hours tweaking. It ends up getting worse and then I just throw in the towel. :/
 
and I’ve spent hours and hours tweaking.
what sort of things did you try? it should be pretty straight forward. maybe something isn't setup right, so anything you change wouldn't help.

are you absolutely sure you have Cab Modeling turned on in the Setup > Global menu?

when you're not satisfied with it, are you just listening at the gig? or have you tried anything at home?

there are many great sounding presets, but it depends on what gear you're running through a bit.

in this video, around 37:20, i chose the Friedman HBE amp at default settings, and chose a random 4x12 IR in the unit. sounds great to me as a starting point.

does the sound i get here sound ok to you? or does it sound bad/unusable?

 
what sort of things did you try? it should be pretty straight forward. maybe something isn't setup right, so anything you change wouldn't help.

are you absolutely sure you have Cab Modeling turned on in the Setup > Global menu?

when you're not satisfied with it, are you just listening at the gig? or have you tried anything at home?

there are many great sounding presets, but it depends on what gear you're running through a bit.

in this video, around 37:20, i chose the Friedman HBE amp at default settings, and chose a random 4x12 IR in the unit. sounds great to me as a starting point.

does the sound i get here sound ok to you? or does it sound bad/unusable?



100% confirmed the cab sims are on, I leave them on even when using real cabs (weird, I know). I’ve only ran direct at a gig a few times (in a pinch, amp blew up, things like that). Most of my time trying to dial it in for direct-use has been at home though. It sounds ok at 37:20. I’m only using my iPhone headphones to watch the video (so take my opinion with a grain of salt...lol).
Usually when dialing in, I get something that I think sounds great for rhythm but once soloing you can almost hear the “buzz saw” with single note stuff. It sounds synthetic.

I really don’t want the solution to be buying a $1000 FRFR speaker just to build presets at home. The end goal is to have killer presets that I can use at the gig going direct to FOH. What speakers/method are you using to create your sounds?
Is it really necessary for me to set up a whole PA in my house to do this?
 
100% confirmed the cab sims are on, I leave them on even when using real cabs (weird, I know). I’ve only ran direct at a gig a few times (in a pinch, amp blew up, things like that). Most of my time trying to dial it in for direct-use has been at home though. It sounds ok at 37:20. I’m only using my iPhone headphones to watch the video (so take my opinion with a grain of salt...lol).
Usually when dialing in, I get something that I think sounds great for rhythm but once soloing you can almost hear the “buzz saw” with single note stuff. It sounds synthetic.

I really don’t want the solution to be buying a $1000 FRFR speaker just to build presets at home. The end goal is to have killer presets that I can use at the gig going direct to FOH. What speakers/method are you using to create your sounds?
Is it really necessary for me to set up a whole PA in my house to do this?
no you don't need a whole PA. you'd just need some sort of full-range speaker to dial in full-range speaker tones. it would kinda be like dialing in a real amp head without a cab, for use with a cab later - you need a cab :D

you said you tried to dial it in at home. what device did you listen with?
 
no you don't need a whole PA. you'd just need some sort of full-range speaker to dial in full-range speaker tones. it would kinda be like dialing in a real amp head without a cab, for use with a cab later - you need a cab :D

you said you tried to dial it in at home. what device did you listen with?
Definitely makes sense. I feel like an old out-of-touch person trying to figure out an iPhone. Lol. And I’m anal about tone, and usually can program anything!!

The main speakers I’ve tried with are PreSonus Air 15 PA tops. I have JBL SRX stuff too, but that’s packed in the band trailer. I tried using Bose Sticks in the past too (long time ago).
Thoughts on the Line 6 FRFR speaker cabs? I might have access to those.
 
Definitely makes sense. I feel like an old out-of-touch person trying to figure out an iPhone. Lol. And I’m anal about tone, and usually can program anything!!

The main speakers I’ve tried with are PreSonus Air 15 PA tops. I have JBL SRX stuff too, but that’s packed in the band trailer. I tried using Bose Sticks in the past too (long time ago).
Thoughts on the Line 6 FRFR speaker cabs? I might have access to those.
oh ok so you do have access to Full Range speakers. so yeah, i'd spend some time just trying out different IRs, and definitely adjust the High Cut in the cab block to get rid of top end fizz or other harsh sounds.

different pa speakers sound different of course, but you should be able to find a happy medium that works with most PA setups. then the sound guy should be able to adjust channel EQ to fit it in the mix better.

hard to explain some of this stuff with text only and not being there hearing what you're hearing.
 
oh ok so you do have access to Full Range speakers. so yeah, i'd spend some time just trying out different IRs, and definitely adjust the High Cut in the cab block to get rid of top end fizz or other harsh sounds.

different pa speakers sound different of course, but you should be able to find a happy medium that works with most PA setups. then the sound guy should be able to adjust channel EQ to fit it in the mix better.

hard to explain some of this stuff with text only and not being there hearing what you're hearing.
Do you recommend trying to get ahold of the Line 6s or programming through the JBLs/Presonus stuff?
 
Do you recommend trying to get ahold of the Line 6s or programming through the JBLs/Presonus stuff?
i would not get the Line 6 for that purpose. that's not a typical Full Range speaker. you'd want to use things similar to what you find at the gigs for FOH. a standard, full ranged powered speaker - like you have already - would be the best, in my opinion.

making tones on specialized equipment might not translate to sounding good on non-specialized equipment.
 
100% confirmed the cab sims are on, I leave them on even when using real cabs (weird, I know).
This could be greatly contributing to your issue. If you have the Amps dialed going through a virtual cab (filter 1) and a real cab (filter 2), it affected how you tweaked them. Then when you go through a full range system using only the virtual cab (filter 1), the amps won't be set correctly for only one 'filter'.
 
This could be greatly contributing to your issue. If you have the Amps dialed going through a virtual cab (filter 1) and a real cab (filter 2), it affected how you tweaked them. Then when you go through a full range system using only the virtual cab (filter 1), the amps won't be set correctly for only one 'filter'.
good point.

if Cab sims are on and a cab block is in the preset he's using with a real cab, that could really throw off the preset creation process, as he's most likely cutting a ton of low end to sound good for a cab sim (with a lot of low end) going into a real cab (that has a lot of low end).

then changing to a "proper" setup (just 1 cab entity) with the same preset that was created in a skewed matter (cab going into a cab), going full range could sound extremely bad.

can you confirm that you're running Cab sims on AND a Cab block in your presets when using real cabs @gspencer26 ? that "weird" usage might just be the source of the issue.

have you ever tried making a preset from complete scratch when using your Presonus speaker? or used any of the Factory presets through there? i'm confident that the Friedman HBE model at default settings with a 4x12 IR in the unit should sound "good" on any system.
 
I run a Matrix into a stereo 4x12 cab and also two CLRs and ambient in-ears! Overkill I know but anyway, I have to EQ the heck out of the signal going to the Matrix. Its really harsh and tons of high-end. Are you hitting the Matrix before your cab block? You don't want to run an ir into a real cab. I would get it to sound good with studio monitors or the P.A. system and then EQ your real cab and amp signal to what you want it to sound like on stage.
 
This could be greatly contributing to your issue. If you have the Amps dialed going through a virtual cab (filter 1) and a real cab (filter 2), it affected how you tweaked them. Then when you go through a full range system using only the virtual cab (filter 1), the amps won't be set correctly for only one 'filter'.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...ing-inc-km-212p-2x12-inch-slant-cabinet-green

These are the cabs I use. They’re essentially built for modelers, but not FRFR cabs. I could use them with a “real” amp if desired.
My direct tone compared to going through the cabs is close. But it’s like it goes from great to “ehh, decent but sounds digital” between the two. I’m 100% open to have different presets for the different set ups. I’ve started from scratch trying to build FOH patches as well.
 
please try the High Cut in the cab block when going direct/full range.

PA speakers put out a lot of high end and can accentuate highs you don't want to be there.

that said, since the Axe3, i haven't really adjusted it at all. but depending on what you're hearing, that's probably the best place to start.
 
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