A/B With Guitar Cab and Matrix GT 800FX

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I did an A/B test between some real amps and their models using an Avatar 2x12 and a Matrix GT 800FX today because some people say when they do this it sounds "thin" or there's a "blanket over the cab".

In every case the model sounded as good or better than the real amp and there was no thinness or blanket. If you don't turn the Axe-Fx up to be as loud as the amp then, yes, it can sound thin or muffled due to Fletcher-Munson but get the volume up and it's pretty wicked but, damn, it's loud.

That bad news is my ears are still ringing. Holy cr@p I forgot how loud guitar amps can be.
 
I have a/b my Mark 5 lead channel modes with respective mark iv and iic+ models in the axe fx III since the launch firmware and it's always sounded just as full and powerful as the real deal. People just don't realize how loud they play their real amps and probably run the matrix much quieter or without power amp Sims.

Plus, and maybe more importantly, the axe model is not a model of our exact amp so someone may simply copy the controls and expect it to sound the same. Throw in a geq and match them by ear. Not everything is set and forget if you're trying to clone your setup.

I'm using a gt1600fx and it gets plenty loud without having to Max everything out on the power amp or the axe.
 
I still love the sound of my rig and I'm going through either a 2 x 12 or 4 x 12 Mesa cab loaded with Celestion Creamback 65s. I may EQ a little different but it kicks butt.
 
Most people still have no idea how much the speaker enclosure plays a part in the sound, too.

I guarantee if most people had their own favorite 100% tube rigs mic’d up in the next room through studio monitors and were simply told they were playing through a modeler, they’d say the same old things. “Sounds digital,” “not as lively,” "disconnected from the experience," etc.

Every time I’ve A/B’d an Axe-Fx and a SS poweramp into a guitar cab, and a tube amp into the same cabinet, all it takes is extremely basic tweaking to match how good the tube amp sounds and feels.

People still compare guitar cabs to FRFR when they talk about the differences between tube amps and modelers. Most people still don't get it.
 
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I did an A/B test between some real amps and their models using an Avatar 2x12 and a Matrix GT 800FX today because some people say when they do this it sounds "thin" or there's a "blanket over the cab".

In every case the model sounded as good or better than the real amp and there was no thinness or blanket.

Curious: did you apply tweaks to Amp parameters to test “pa+cab”, and if yes: which ones?
 
Curious: did you apply tweaks to Amp parameters to test “pa+cab”, and if yes: which ones?
I've done the same A/B tests with Marshall, Mesa and Bogner amps using a Mesa 2 x 12 loaded with Celestion Creamback 65s and a Mesa Boogie Two Fifty tube power amp. With amp and cab modeling left on, I can use a matching factory preset, tweak the EQ settings. stick a PEQ block at the end before the out block, dropping everything below 80hz and above 8k with the steepest slope and get a close match. And even though my tube amp may color it a little warmer, EQing compensates it.
 
Just to get an idea of your test, approximately where do you have the output on the matrix as well as the axe?
 
I did an A/B test between some real amps and their models using an Avatar 2x12 and a Matrix GT 800FX today because some people say when they do this it sounds "thin" or there's a "blanket over the cab".

In every case the model sounded as good or better than the real amp and there was no thinness or blanket. If you don't turn the Axe-Fx up to be as loud as the amp then, yes, it can sound thin or muffled due to Fletcher-Munson but get the volume up and it's pretty wicked but, damn, it's loud.

That bad news is my ears are still ringing. Holy cr@p I forgot how loud guitar amps can be.
Glad to hear that you continue to check models against their counterparts! A couple of questions:
Do the “real” amps suffer with the same blanket over speakers effect due to FM at low volumes too? Or does FM affect real amps in a slightly different way? People in modeling land talk about FM all the time. But in tube amp circles no one seems to, maybe everyone is just diming their amps?

When doing the test, do you need to dial the model controls significantly different or use deep parameters vs the reference amp? Or is it pretty much 1 to 1?
 
I bet a lot of people don't run it at unity gain like it's designed. U r supposed to crank that output knob right all the way up, then set levels internally. Running it in 4CM with a Roadster combo was a jaw dropping experience with everything hooked up right. The AFX2 disappeared entirely, the Mesa responded more intimately and sounded better having run through a bunch of cable backflips using the AFX2 input, hard to describe other than 'voodoo'...must be why it's called 'secret sauce'...
 
I did an A/B test between some real amps and their models using an Avatar 2x12 and a Matrix GT 800FX today because some people say when they do this it sounds "thin" or there's a "blanket over the cab".

In every case the model sounded as good or better than the real amp and there was no thinness or blanket. If you don't turn the Axe-Fx up to be as loud as the amp then, yes, it can sound thin or muffled due to Fletcher-Munson but get the volume up and it's pretty wicked but, damn, it's loud.

That bad news is my ears are still ringing. Holy cr@p I forgot how loud guitar amps can be.
What speakers were in the Avatar? Would you mind posting the preset? As someone who is still very new, I’m still seeking that warm tube sound.

As an aside, there isn’t a day that goes by where the Axe FX3 doesn’t blow my mind with what it can do!
 
Glad to hear that you continue to check models against their counterparts! A couple of questions:
Do the “real” amps suffer with the same blanket over speakers effect due to FM at low volumes too? Or does FM affect real amps in a slightly different way? People in modeling land talk about FM all the time. But in tube amp circles no one seems to, maybe everyone is just diming their amps?

When doing the test, do you need to dial the model controls significantly different or use deep parameters vs the reference amp? Or is it pretty much 1 to 1?

This is interesting. I have an ENGL Ironball here and the first time I played through it, master on almost 0 (just loud enough so I could practice), and thought it sounded awesome. I would always use it to practice at extremely low volumes. One day I took it to a gig, and cranked it loud. When I went back home, I hooked it up back to my mesa 4x12, turned the volume down to practice levels and EQ’d it as I normally would for practice, then turned it up and... I was surprised at how muffled it sounded. I had to crank up the treble and presence knobs in order to sound acceptably pleasant. Strange isn’t it? How could the same amp, EQ’d the exact same (OCD), sound great once, then sound bad and muffled. I thought I had blown something up.

Then I realized it was just that my perception changed from the gig, because I played it loud, and realized all my amps sound muffled COMPARED to gig volumes.
Same thing happend with the AXE FX. People are used to how amps sound at gig volumes, and compare that to the AXE at bedroom levels, which will emulate an amp at guess what... bedroom levels.
On a side note, I’ve seen many people here saying the AXE sounds harsh at gig levels, and something tells me it’s because they compensate the muffled sound at bedroom levels with too much treble and presence, thinking it’s just a bad, muffled emulation.
 
What speakers were in the Avatar? Would you mind posting the preset? As someone who is still very new, I’m still seeking that warm tube sound.

As an aside, there isn’t a day that goes by where the Axe FX3 doesn’t blow my mind with what it can do!

For the purposes of this thread, I don't think it matters what speakers were in the cab. The point was that the guitar cabinet was the control for the experiment. The idea was that whatever the cab may be, if you play a tube amp through it and compare that vs an Axe-Fx and a good SS amp plugged into the same cab, they're going to sound and feel about the same.
 
That's why it's a safer bet to work on a recording tone, so it sounds great coming out of computer speakers, but also great coming out of a cranked PA...vs intricately tweaking stuff to get it to sound like your amp, only to have it sound like ass in a track, and be actually damaging cranked at gig level...
 
Longtime user of the matrix amps (both the GT800fx and 1000fx).

I can confirm what cliff says to be true. A/B'ed against some of their real world counterparts that I own as well as some of friends and artists I have worked with. Nigh-impossible to tell the difference. It's one of the first things I do when matching sounds, I take the cabinet and power amp out of the equation.

Also good to have a Matrix Amp to shoot IRs as well.
 
I can attest to this. I've tone matched my Rivera Knuckle Head Tre and they sounded/felt identical. I also recently acquired a Triple Rectifier and gotten the same result. The only difference I can think of is that maybe people have the amp block set to FRFR instead of power amp and cab, which has an effect on the fullness of the sound. But yeah, when the Axe FX is set properly, there is no real discernible difference.
 
Most people still have no idea how much the speaker enclosure plays a part in the sound, too.
Agree 100%. There is a huge difference in feel and sound between my Avatar 212 and my Egnater 412 cabs. The Avatar is a bit stiff and seems to emphasize the mids a lot more than the Egnater. Both cabs have Celestion G12K-100 speakers.
 
What speakers were in the Avatar? Would you mind posting the preset? As someone who is still very new, I’m still seeking that warm tube sound.

As an aside, there isn’t a day that goes by where the Axe FX3 doesn’t blow my mind with what it can do!
"warm tube sound" is usually just off-axis in a room tube sound. there's nothing inherently warmer about a tube amp.
 
Agree 100%. There is a huge difference in feel and sound between my Avatar 212 and my Egnater 412 cabs. The Avatar is a bit stiff and seems to emphasize the mids a lot more than the Egnater. Both cabs have Celestion G12K-100 speakers.

Yep, the differences between one guitar cab and another alone can be huge.

The difference between guitar cabs as a whole and IRs + FRFR... apples to oranges.
 
Yep, the differences between one guitar cab and another alone can be huge.

The difference between guitar cabs as a whole and IRs + FRFR... apples to oranges.
Yep. I mostly use IRs when my band is running our own sound. If we play a show where we have PA provided I will bring a cab. I may still go directly into the PA from the AXE3, but I want to make sure I can hear myself.
 
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