Would you find a modeling pickup useful?

Yes. That article is mostly based on one by J. Donald Tillman. I can't yet post links, google for "Response Effects of Guitar Pickup Position and Width" and you should find it. Tillman also has a very cool interactive demo for how this plays out, google "Tillman PickupResponseDemo"

There is more to pickup modelling than the frequency response but this is a key part of it.
I know that article and that demo, I just didn't remember how to search to find it quickly. Thanks!

PS: yes I'm aware there are other things to consider (frequency response of the pickup itself, magnetic aperture, non-linearities, etc.), I was just replying about modeling pickup position.
 
(To mods: Please delete this post if this is not acceptable here. It is about something that might be turned into a business but isn't currently one. I work as a software engineer at Google.)

We're all fans of modelled guitar amps and effects. If a modelling guitar pickup of Fractal-esque quality existed, would you be interested in using it?

I have some ideas for how to build an ultra-low noise guitar pickup that is hi-fi enough to work as a platform for very high quality pickup simulation. It could simulate pickup types and pickup positions (bridge, neck, some combo, phase flip etc). Form factor wise, it would be installed in the bridge pickup slot, come in tele, strat and HB versions and look more or less like a normal pickup. No permanent modifications to the guitar or ugly external gizmos. It will probably require a special guitar cable which connects to a small stompbox with a jack output. The stompbox could potentially have a midi out that sends messages when knobs move on the guitar if people are interested in that.

Compared to similar existing products, I think the two main selling points are higher sound quality and that it works on any guitar, not just ones that are built for that system.

This does not currently exist. Making it a reality would be a pretty large undertaking so before I invest too much into it I'm trying to see if more people than just me would be interested in using such a thing. What do you think? No?

The Roland VG99 is a great guitar modeller. The only drawback is that it is not Fractal Audio quality, and only has few guitar/pickup models.

https://www.roland.com/global/products/vg-99/
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/
 
Need? No, I already have many guitars to cover a lot of ground, and the level of details getting to deep for needs. Want? Yes, for no practical reason, but only if it captured the nuance of different designs/ouptus/materials as well as the AxeFX captures the nuance of amps/cabs.

Not to start a debate about how much other factors matter such as wood, fret material, etc... are you talking about just a flat response pickup so that if it were put into different constructions of guitars, it would still "pickup" (pun intended) those characteristics? Or trying to get a flat response out of the guitar completely?
 
I like the concept, and own a Variax (that I almost never play for many reasons, sound being only one of them). But what I do like about Variax is that I can sound like a Strat, turn a knob and now it's a LP or a Gretsch or whatever. So for me it's not so much about modeling the pickup itself as it is having the convenience of a whole arsenal of guitars in one for gigs where I need to cover a lot of ground. If I could drop something like that into my favorite playing guitar that'd be pretty cool. On the other hand, I've always been able to get by quite well w/ modelers and a versatile guitar like an HSS Strat w/ coil tap, or a PRS 513.
 
Not to start a debate about how much other factors matter such as wood, fret material, etc... are you talking about just a flat response pickup so that if it were put into different constructions of guitars, it would still "pickup" (pun intended) those characteristics? Or trying to get a flat response out of the guitar completely?

What I have in mind is to strictly limit the modelling to the pickup itself. In this sense it would be different from a Variax, which does full guitar simulation. It would try to preserve the characteristics of the guitar in the same way that traditional pickups do. I personally feel that the pickup is a big factor of a guitar's sound but it's not the only one.

The tech I have in mind has some unique traits which I think will be able to improve on the state of the art of pickup modelling but I don't have any special tricks for full guitar simulation. As a bonus feature I could throw some IRs and the likes at the sound to try to simulate acoustic guitars and other kinds of guitar simulation, which should produce a usable but not authentic sound. I don't have any novel ideas in this area.
 
What is relatively affordable to you?

I'm a fan of buying used MIM Strats and dropping $200-$300 worth of pickups in them, so I'd think somewhere around there (or maybe as much as $400-ish) would be my comfort zone. Hard to say, though. 6 years ago I would have thought dropping $2500 or so on a modeler was outrageous. Now I own an AFX II, XL+, and III and have zero regrets on spending the money. (Still planning to sell the first two though, to free up more GAS money.)
 
The tech I have in mind has some unique traits which I think will be able to improve on the state of the art of pickup modelling
Do you have unique pickup modeling tricks up your sleeve that aren't covered by the Tillman article, Line 6 and Roland patents, tonematching methods, etc.? Or is this pickup modeling idea more of a "same great tech in a new form factor" idea?

On the hardware side, an ultra-low noise guitar pickup, something like the Fishman Fluence?

I don't understand how you're suggesting it can simulate different pickup positions, but it needs to be installed in the bridge pickup slot. This kind of a "it can sorta do that thing" pickup simulation feature isn't attractive to me personally. Probably still useful though.

The "special guitar cable which connects to a small stompbox with a jack output" kills it as a viable product IMHO.
 
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If one day such a product appears on the market and it provides what it promises, I'm all in! I like to have a huge amount of variety of sounds with one simple setup. That's what I have the Axe for and on my guitar I use the Seymour Duncan Triple Shot. But being able to finetune the guitar output with a modeling pickup would of course be a whole different level!
 
Thanks TG3K for your thoughts on pricing, that is very useful information even if it's only one data point. At this point I don't know enough to say what the price will be, but keeping the price reasonable is a high priority.

Do you have unique pickup modeling tricks up your sleeve that aren't covered by the Tillman article, Line 6 and Roland patents, tonematching methods, etc.? Or is this pickup modeling idea more of a "same great tech in a new form factor" idea?

On the hardware side, an ultra-low noise guitar pickup, something like the Fishman Fluence?

I have a couple of tricks that I want to try. Part of this is a fairly novel hardware design.

I don't understand how you're suggesting it can simulate different pickup positions, but it needs to be installed in the bridge pickup slot. This kind of a "it can sorta do that thing" pickup simulation feature isn't attractive to me personally. Probably still useful though.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, simulating pickup positions is simpler than it might seem. The techniques for this are explained in Tillman's articles and are in fact old enough that Roland's patents for it have expired. The reason that the pickup has to be in the bridge position is because that minimizes the coloration introduced by pickup placement (Tillman explains this in detail). This is why Roland GK-3 is always installed right next to the bridge, and why Variax uses a pickup that is embedded in the bridge.

The "special guitar cable which connects to a small stompbox with a jack output" kills it as a viable product IMHO.

I realize that this will put some people off the product. I don't think I can do any better though. If I would embed all electronics in the guitar I don't think I would be able to make it small enough to fit in standard sized control cavities, especially not on teles. So it would end up requiring serious woodworking skills to install and irreversible modifications to the guitar which I see as even more of a showstopper.

Is there something in particular that you don't like about the special cable? Is it unacceptable even if the cable is just as good to handle as a normal guitar cable and the jack size and cable diameter are more or less the same as a normal one?

Thanks yeky83 for your feedback too, I appreciate that you say what you think and hope this doesn't come across like I'm attacking back.
 
I would be interested. Think it's a good idea. (And the 'I like different guitars' argument seems beside the point here...by all means have plenty of guitars if you like, but wouldn't it be fun/easy to have a guitar you can bring to say an 'open jam' night and cover pretty much everything?)

If I was able to outfit a guitar that I liked the feel of, and turn it into a 'widget' guitar with a Fractal product and a PUP modeler, you could cover quite a bit of ground.

I suspect you will have quite an engineering challenge here. You would say HB, but WHICH one? Could you somehow tweak the FW to go from a PAF to a Bare Knuckle? Etc.

If nothing else it sounds like fun!

R
 
Yes, or a Keyztone Exchanger. These pedals are definitely easier to use, but their sound is not very accurate. The idea with this product is that its sound should be near indistinguishable from the real deal, that's what I hope to get to at least.

Good luck with it, I'd be eager to hear what you come up with. In the meantime though, you're asking a question that is difficult to answer: "What would you think of something that is similar to existing product, but is harder to use, but I hope it will sound better?". It all depends on whether your hopes are eventually fulfilled :).
 
I suspect you will have quite an engineering challenge here. You would say HB, but WHICH one? Could you somehow tweak the FW to go from a PAF to a Bare Knuckle? Etc.

Yes, and also definitely a user interface design challenge. The inputs to the pickup models will be complicated enough that the UI will have to present some significantly dumbed down version. Sometime in the future I might start another thread about which parameters people want to have access to.
 
Good luck with it, I'd be eager to hear what you come up with. In the meantime though, you're asking a question that is difficult to answer: "What would you think of something that is similar to existing product, but is harder to use, but I hope it will sound better?". It all depends on whether your hopes are eventually fulfilled :).

You guys/gals have far exceeded my expectations in your ability to answer this question despite its ambiguity :) If a forum on the Internet could conclusively predict if an idea would turn into a successful business, that would be great, but I think I'll have to settle for hearing people's thoughts and extrapolate from there.
 
I have a couple of tricks that I want to try. Part of this is a fairly novel hardware design.
Oo I like interesting pickup hardware designs :p
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, simulating pickup positions is simpler than it might seem. The techniques for this are explained in Tillman's articles and are in fact old enough that Roland's patents for it have expired. The reason that the pickup has to be in the bridge position is because that minimizes the coloration introduced by pickup placement (Tillman explains this in detail). This is why Roland GK-3 is always installed right next to the bridge, and why Variax uses a pickup that is embedded in the bridge.
I understand the pickup position simulation part. But by placing a pickup in a normal bridge pickup slot rather than at/very-close to the bridge as with the Variax or GK-3, wouldn't it already have significant coloration that you'd have to somehow negate first before you apply the bass boost and comb filter to make it sound like a neck pickup? Dunno, maybe it's not a big concern.

Thinking of doing a hex pickup btw?
I realize that this will put some people off the product. I don't think I can do any better though. If I would embed all electronics in the guitar I don't think I would be able to make it small enough to fit in standard sized control cavities, especially not on teles. So it would end up requiring serious woodworking skills to install and irreversible modifications to the guitar which I see as even more of a showstopper.
The Fishman Fluence Tele set embeds everything nicely in the small control cavity if you haven't checked it out. But it sounds like you'd have quite a bit more stuff to fit in, so it'd be a challenge.
Is there something in particular that you don't like about the special cable? Is it unacceptable even if the cable is just as good to handle as a normal guitar cable and the jack size and cable diameter are more or less the same as a normal one?
It's not the cable so much, it's the extra pedal to carry and manage. An extra pedal might make sense with something like the SIM-1 where it simulates the whole guitar. It's one small gear to carry to replace many big gears, yay go technology. It makes practical sense where one might need Strat, Tele, and Les Paul sounds in one gig/session.

I don't really see the practical sense in the premise of a pedal that gives many many pickups in one guitar. Guitarists who switch out pickups to suit the characteristic of a certain guitar usually end up with a single set of pickups that they really like anyway. Why carry around a pedal when a good set of pickups will do? And products like Fishman Fluence already provides up to 3 voicings with their pickups with no extra gear. I dunno, maybe it's just me.
Thanks yeky83 for your feedback too, I appreciate that you say what you think and hope this doesn't come across like I'm attacking back.
Thanks for the discussion and a fun idea. I hope it doesn't come across like I'm attacking you either, just giving you some quick reactions.
 
I'm wireless 95% of the time and like it that way. I'd see the pedal as an impediment.
If the ROI was great enough, I'd consider going wired. But it is a stop for me.
Most electronic systems these days can be immensely reduced in size. Why not that one?
 
Wrong audience, IMO. I could see the value of this if one used a tube amp exclusively or primarily. If one is already using a modeler, there's really no reason for whatever "pickup modeling" there is to remain in the pickup. Come to think of it, for the Fractal crowd, a Fractal pickup with ultra-flat frequency response would be more valuable (coupled with a block inside AxeFX which lets you select whatever pickup model you want). Sort of like FRFR, but on the other end of the chain.
 
Wrong audience, IMO. I could see the value of this if one used a tube amp exclusively or primarily. If one is already using a modeler, there's really no reason for whatever "pickup modeling" there is to remain in the pickup...

I respectfully disagree. I have yet to find a way to get the classic Strat "squawk/spank" tone of the bridge and middle pup together on anything but a guitar with two single coil pups spaced the same as they are on a Strat. Even with a HSS-equipped Strat, and splitting the coil on the humbucker, I can't get that tone. Same with the Variax. it gets close, but it's still not quite there. I've not found anything in the AFX that can get that sound out of any other guitar.

...Come to think of it, for the Fractal crowd, a Fractal pickup with ultra-flat frequency response would be more valuable (coupled with a block inside AxeFX which lets you select whatever pickup model you want). Sort of like FRFR, but on the other end of the chain.

Now, if FAS were to build a FRFR pup and have built-in modeling to emulate that tone, then yes, it might be possible, but I believe that's along the lines of what the OP has in mind.
 
Oo I like interesting pickup hardware designs :p

I understand the pickup position simulation part. But by placing a pickup in a normal bridge pickup slot rather than at/very-close to the bridge as with the Variax or GK-3, wouldn't it already have significant coloration that you'd have to somehow negate first before you apply the bass boost and comb filter to make it sound like a neck pickup? Dunno, maybe it's not a big concern.

You are right, there would be some added coloration for not placing it even closer to the bridge. Placing in the bridge pickup position is a compromise for practicality. The main factors play out a bit like this: This effect only matters when simulating non-bridge pickup positions. The distance to the bridge has an effect mainly on standing waves, not much of the initial pick attack sound. The physics of the instrument and strings makes the effect most pronounced for the string with the lowest pitch, for the high strings the effect is not significant. The worst case scenario is the low E string of a single coil Strat, where this effect would start noticeably attenuating something like the 12th overtone of the low E string. For a HB Strat and other designs which work out better for this design it would start at maybe the 17th-20th overtone, which I doubt will be very audible.

This is one of the major error sources in the design. I honestly don't know how severe it will be in practice, time will have to tell.

Thinking of doing a hex pickup btw?

Yes, it will be hex.

The Fishman Fluence Tele set embeds everything nicely in the small control cavity if you haven't checked it out. But it sounds like you'd have quite a bit more stuff to fit in, so it'd be a challenge.

Thanks for the pointer! I don't know why but I had not considered selling a fully assembled control plate.

It's not the cable so much, it's the extra pedal to carry and manage. An extra pedal might make sense with something like the SIM-1 where it simulates the whole guitar. It's one small gear to carry to replace many big gears, yay go technology. It makes practical sense where one might need Strat, Tele, and Les Paul sounds in one gig/session.

I don't really see the practical sense in the premise of a pedal that gives many many pickups in one guitar. Guitarists who switch out pickups to suit the characteristic of a certain guitar usually end up with a single set of pickups that they really like anyway. Why carry around a pedal when a good set of pickups will do? And products like Fishman Fluence already provides up to 3 voicings with their pickups with no extra gear. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

Thanks for the discussion and a fun idea. I hope it doesn't come across like I'm attacking you either, just giving you some quick reactions.

Thanks for your feedback, I really appreciate it. I am about to write another post that explains why I currently am looking at having a "breakout" pedal, but I can't really say much in response other than that this is a niche product. I hope to find a bunch of buyers but I don't think it will appeal to as many as for example the Axe Fx.
 
I'm wireless 95% of the time and like it that way. I'd see the pedal as an impediment.
If the ROI was great enough, I'd consider going wired. But it is a stop for me.
Most electronic systems these days can be immensely reduced in size. Why not that one?

Ah, you're wireless. I totally understand you then. There are both product and business level reasons for locking the system to a cable.

I'm personally quite excited about the possibilities that a properly good hex guitar signal would open up. Applying a compressor or OD per string is a quite different thing than applying it to the whole guitar. I want to be able to give the separated signal to my users to play with, and that is (with today's technology) just not compatible with wireless.

Technically, the approach I'm taking already pushes the boundaries of what is possible with accessibly priced components quite hard, in multiple ways. Fitting everything in the guitar is certainly doable, but it would be yet another serious challenge: The pickup itself and the associated DSP are quite power hungry, it's power requirements are more like an actively used mobile phone than an EMG pickup. Unfortunately, I think that designing a battery pack that fits in such a small space and the charging circuitry would blow the R&D budget I can give this unproven, revenue-less and venture capital lacking business.

Pretty much the only thing I know about lithium battery pack design is that if you do it wrong they occasionally explode. Burning down your house is not on my list of things I'm hoping to achieve with this project and I'm worried that the investment to do it right would just be more than I can take.

I hope to be able to expand the product lineup to support this in the future but I don't think it will make it to 1.0.
 
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