Papery buzz under some models?

Thanks so much for this info Cliff!! Really appreciate it!!

Also explains that badger sound...good lord I hate that thing LMAOOOOO

Unique sound though, I can see it being useful in a recording for a taste of something different, just not my cup of tea.

Do the bassmans also exhibit that crossover distortion? Sure sounds like it to me
 
Those two particular amps are "cathode biased Class-A" amps. IMO the designs are poor because... wait for it... they exhibit a papery buzz. The problem with most cathode biased Class A amps is, 1: they aren't really Class A (more like hot Class AB) and 2: They go into Class B operation when they are overdriven. The cathode capacitor charges up and the bias point shifts dramatically. This causes lots of crossover distortion (papery buzz). It's worse on lower notes because lower notes have more energy and charge the cap more.

The is probably the reason Leo Fender switched to fixed bias amps with negative feedback. Fixed bias is just that, the bias point is fixed so the amp doesn't shift into Class B operation when overdriven (not as much anyways, depends on the bias circuit, grid stoppers, etc.). Negative feedback linearizes the amp and reduces the crossover distortion (at the expense of gain). That's why the buzzing went away when you increased negative feedback. Crossover distortion is a unique sound. For cleaner sounds it tends to be objectionable. For overdriven sounds some find it desirable. EVH ostensibly liked his amps biased cold to get some crossover distortion. There are even some amps that have circuits to intentionally generate crossover distortion. Some distortion pedals also do this.

Lowering the Cathode Resistance reduces the crossover distortion as it keeps the amp in Class A operation longer but the tubes run hotter and don't last as long. This is not a problem with our virtual amps though. I forget the actual values but I'm pretty certain if you look at the Cathode Resistance value for those amps it's pretty high. This means the amps are biased somewhat cold to begin with and shift to very cold as soon as overdriven. One reason I like the AC-20 is that it runs the tubes hotter and exhibits less crossover distortion. The worst amp in this regard is the Badger 18. The cathode resistors are very large and the amp shifts into Class B operation early causing a spitty, buzzy distortion quality. This amp, however, is liked by many so that just goes to show that some people like that. It's like fuzz pedals. Some people like that spitty sound. I personally don't like it.

Then there's shared vs. split cathode. If you look at the schematics on the web the Maz-38 is shared cathode. I could never get the model to sound exactly like our reference amp. Finally I traced the entire circuit and our particular amp is a split cathode. As soon as I changed the model to split cathode it was spot on. This is not exposed to the user though (there's a hidden shared/split switch). Our particular amp says "Humbucker" inside the chassis. Not sure if the difference in the cathode circuit is because Dr. Z likes split cathode for humbucking guitars or what.

I could easily make the models more ideal and less buzzy but that's not my call. Accuracy always comes first. Most people want that authenticity so that's why the models are like that. If you don't like it either dial it out by reducing Cathode Resistance, increasing negative feedback, etc. or pick a different model.

tl;dr version. Those amps do that. Pick a different model.
Thanks for this info and explanation, really love these deeper insights into in the inner workings and design decisions of various amp circuits from an authority such as yourself. Also very well explained in that I think even I managed to follow and understand it ;)
 
Those two particular amps are "cathode biased Class-A" amps. IMO the designs are poor because... wait for it... they exhibit a papery buzz. The problem with most cathode biased Class A amps is, 1: they aren't really Class A (more like hot Class AB) and 2: They go into Class B operation when they are overdriven. The cathode capacitor charges up and the bias point shifts dramatically. This causes lots of crossover distortion (papery buzz). It's worse on lower notes because lower notes have more energy and charge the cap more.

The is probably the reason Leo Fender switched to fixed bias amps with negative feedback. Fixed bias is just that, the bias point is fixed so the amp doesn't shift into Class B operation when overdriven (not as much anyways, depends on the bias circuit, grid stoppers, etc.). Negative feedback linearizes the amp and reduces the crossover distortion (at the expense of gain). That's why the buzzing went away when you increased negative feedback. Crossover distortion is a unique sound. For cleaner sounds it tends to be objectionable. For overdriven sounds some find it desirable. EVH ostensibly liked his amps biased cold to get some crossover distortion. There are even some amps that have circuits to intentionally generate crossover distortion. Some distortion pedals also do this.

Lowering the Cathode Resistance reduces the crossover distortion as it keeps the amp in Class A operation longer but the tubes run hotter and don't last as long. This is not a problem with our virtual amps though. I forget the actual values but I'm pretty certain if you look at the Cathode Resistance value for those amps it's pretty high. This means the amps are biased somewhat cold to begin with and shift to very cold as soon as overdriven. One reason I like the AC-20 is that it runs the tubes hotter and exhibits less crossover distortion. The worst amp in this regard is the Badger 18. The cathode resistors are very large and the amp shifts into Class B operation early causing a spitty, buzzy distortion quality. This amp, however, is liked by many so that just goes to show that some people like that. It's like fuzz pedals. Some people like that spitty sound. I personally don't like it.

Then there's shared vs. split cathode. If you look at the schematics on the web the Maz-38 is shared cathode. I could never get the model to sound exactly like our reference amp. Finally I traced the entire circuit and our particular amp is a split cathode. As soon as I changed the model to split cathode it was spot on. This is not exposed to the user though (there's a hidden shared/split switch). Our particular amp says "Humbucker" inside the chassis. Not sure if the difference in the cathode circuit is because Dr. Z likes split cathode for humbucking guitars or what.

I could easily make the models more ideal and less buzzy but that's not my call. Accuracy always comes first. Most people want that authenticity so that's why the models are like that. If you don't like it either dial it out by reducing Cathode Resistance, increasing negative feedback, etc. or pick a different model.

@yek - Cliff note worthy!
 
TL;DR Thank you!

PS - I can get rid of more of that buzz by lowering the transformer drive than by lowering the cathode resistance.

Thank you for your thread. I‘m late to the party. I was struggeling with that buzz too since I got the III. Your tip was great, problem solved.
 
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Those two particular amps are "cathode biased Class-A" amps. IMO the designs are poor because... wait for it... they exhibit a papery buzz. The problem with most cathode biased Class A amps is, 1: they aren't really Class A (more like hot Class AB) and 2: They go into Class B operation when they are overdriven. The cathode capacitor charges up and the bias point shifts dramatically. This causes lots of crossover distortion (papery buzz). It's worse on lower notes because lower notes have more energy and charge the cap more.

The is probably the reason Leo Fender switched to fixed bias amps with negative feedback. Fixed bias is just that, the bias point is fixed so the amp doesn't shift into Class B operation when overdriven (not as much anyways, depends on the bias circuit, grid stoppers, etc.). Negative feedback linearizes the amp and reduces the crossover distortion (at the expense of gain). That's why the buzzing went away when you increased negative feedback. Crossover distortion is a unique sound. For cleaner sounds it tends to be objectionable. For overdriven sounds some find it desirable. EVH ostensibly liked his amps biased cold to get some crossover distortion. There are even some amps that have circuits to intentionally generate crossover distortion. Some distortion pedals also do this.

Lowering the Cathode Resistance reduces the crossover distortion as it keeps the amp in Class A operation longer but the tubes run hotter and don't last as long. This is not a problem with our virtual amps though. I forget the actual values but I'm pretty certain if you look at the Cathode Resistance value for those amps it's pretty high. This means the amps are biased somewhat cold to begin with and shift to very cold as soon as overdriven. One reason I like the AC-20 is that it runs the tubes hotter and exhibits less crossover distortion. The worst amp in this regard is the Badger 18. The cathode resistors are very large and the amp shifts into Class B operation early causing a spitty, buzzy distortion quality. This amp, however, is liked by many so that just goes to show that some people like that. It's like fuzz pedals. Some people like that spitty sound. I personally don't like it.

Then there's shared vs. split cathode. If you look at the schematics on the web the Maz-38 is shared cathode. I could never get the model to sound exactly like our reference amp. Finally I traced the entire circuit and our particular amp is a split cathode. As soon as I changed the model to split cathode it was spot on. This is not exposed to the user though (there's a hidden shared/split switch). Our particular amp says "Humbucker" inside the chassis. Not sure if the difference in the cathode circuit is because Dr. Z likes split cathode for humbucking guitars or what.

I could easily make the models more ideal and less buzzy but that's not my call. Accuracy always comes first. Most people want that authenticity so that's why the models are like that. If you don't like it either dial it out by reducing Cathode Resistance, increasing negative feedback, etc. or pick a different model.

tl;dr version. Those amps do that. Pick a different model.
Does the 64 Super Reverb fall into this category?
 
I had this issue, but solved it by lowering the pickups on my guitars...they were a little too hot.
 
TL;DR Thank you!

PS - I can get rid of more of that buzz by lowering the transformer drive than by lowering the cathode resistance.
Thank you for your thread. I‘m late to the party. I was struggeling with that buzz too since I got the III. Your tip was great, problem solved.

I had I think the same issue with the Deluxe Tweed. I wouldn't quite describe it as a papery buzz... more like a high pitched line buzz that changed frequency depending on the note. It was most noticeable when playing a low note really softly by itself (so definitely not clipping or string buzz that would go away if you played softly).

Turns out that noise was pretty directly correlated to the Transformer Drive. Tradeoff for turning that down is you lose that spongey feel as you dig into chords. I ended up settling on 0.50 for the Transformer Drive as a compromise and bumped the Supply Sag up to 0.74 to loosen up the feel a little bit (not quite the same but it helped).
 
Honestly it’s that part of decaying before the note that makes it the most strange to me. (I’ve tried disabling the noise gate on input block incase that’s what makes it seem like this buzzy sound decays sooner, but it’s still there regardless of how input noise gate is set).

That sounds to me like whatever is causing the buzz is only active when the signal in exceeds a threshold.
 
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