How to EQ Fractal and EQ/setup Marshall DSL-20 for live sound

[Roman Rak]

i spent many hours setting up my new Fractal patches for my first gig using FRFR speakers in quiet rehearsals and a home headphone setup. At my first gig sound check I finally used my two open back Marshall DSL-20C combos in the clean channel. I need these as the sound bleed from the cabinet back gives the other musicians on stage an ambient monitor. As advised, I turned off the cabinet simulator in the global settings. First sound check, the volume was very loud and very bright... Seriously loud and seriously bright! I had to drop the global master volume to -12 dB. I still had to have the unit master volume knob to half. Still louder than previous Zoom. The sound was also very bright. I had to turn the treble down to near zero on the Marshall’s. The gig sounded OK, but still a bit bright and at times a little metallic and brassy.

Is there a better way? What is the best EQ setup for a Marshall DSL to give the closest sound to FRFR? Is there a global EQ for the AX8 to work with Marshall or similar guitar amps?

 

[chris]

A Marshall DSL will never sound like FRFR.

With any gear, you can’t build tones on one system then change to a completely different thing and expect it to sound the same.

Have you read the Owners manual section on how to plug into a real amp? Start there if you haven’t.

 

[pauly]

Hi Roman,
Theres really no substitute to using the speakers you will use with the unit to set up sounds. Particularly a pair of guitar speakers. Did you also disable the cab block in your presets because that will need to be done to ensure you’re not putting cab emulations through your guitar speakers.
Thanks
Pauly

 

[Roman Rak]

On page 82... OUT 1 (MAIN) NOMINAL LEVEL The default Output setting in the Fractal global I/O reads... +4 dBu is the default. It is designed for use with professional audio equipment. It is unlikely you will ever need to change this setting. Use the -10 dBV setting for consumer-grade or other equipment. I am thinking that all guitar amps are -10 dBV on the input. This could be why the signal seemed to be very loud. I will change this setting for next sound check.

If anyone has advice on an EQ formula for a tube Marshall, do share. What I would like is the IR for the open back 1-12, namely the EQ characteristics but reversed. Same principal noise cancelling headphones use (it is a little more complex). This global EQ setting would make the DSL and Celestion speaker sound as neutral, or FRFR like as possible.

 

[chris]

The DSL will not sound “flat” or “full-range” ever because it’s not a full range speaker.

Have you followed the detailed setup guides and diagrams for using with a real amp?

 

[unix-guy]

Are you plugging into the front of the amp or the effects return?

You should also be disabling power amp modeling...

And if you're plugging the AX-8 into the front of the amp, you're effectively running an amp into an amp...

 

[Brian Coonan]

i spent many hours setting up my new Fractal patches for my first gig using FRFR speakers in quiet rehearsals and a home headphone setup.

One thing you'll want to do along with making presets with the actual gear you're going to be using - is also to dial them in at gig volume - creating presets through headphones or at low volume and then going to a gig with a presumably much higher volume will expand the gap of what you heard at home and what you're hearing at the gig.

 

[JoKeR III]

I ran the AX8 into amps using their clean channel. What I found to be the trick for an overly bright overall tone is to set the Treble control on the amp quite low, as low as 'off' to 1 or 2 on the control. Helped tremendously on any amp that was too bright.

I know the "more experienced" users insist that you need to turn off the Power Amp sim when running the AX8 into a guitar amp but my experience was mixed. It depended upon the Fractal model, some sounded much better with the sim on. Try the models with it on and off then determine which sounds the best to you. If it sounds good, it is good and it doesn't matter how you have things configured. That's what's cool about the digital realm; no hard and fast rules for the most part.

 

[chris]

I know the "more experienced" users insist that you need to turn off the Power Amp sim

like the guy who designed the device? generally speaking it should be turned off. but in some cases, as you mentioned, it can be turned on. here's what the manual officially says:

This capability is provided for cases when the Axe-Fx II is used with a guitar-oriented/tube power amp that contributes significantly to tone and dynamics.

 

[Bman]

On page 82... OUT 1 (MAIN) NOMINAL LEVEL The default Output setting in the Fractal global I/O reads... +4 dBu is the default. It is designed for use with professional audio equipment. It is unlikely you will ever need to change this setting. Use the -10 dBV setting for consumer-grade or other equipment. I am thinking that all guitar amps are -10 dBV on the input. This could be why the signal seemed to be very loud. I will change this setting for next sound check.

If anyone has advice on an EQ formula for a tube Marshall, do share. What I would like is the IR for the open back 1-12, namely the EQ characteristics but reversed. Same principal noise cancelling headphones use (it is a little more complex). This global EQ setting would make the DSL and Celestion speaker sound as neutral, or FRFR like as possible.

I have a Marshall DSL 40. It's got the cream back 65's not the 70/80s, which to my ears are complete cr@p. I simply run the output 1 from the Ax8 into the FX Return of the Marshall. I set the Marshall to the green channel, which is the cleaner crunch channel. The EQ and Gain knobs on the Marshall don't do anything. The Ax8 is my pre-amp and EQ. I control the volume of the amp with the output knob on the front of the AX8. I have one preset that is a shunt all the way through. This is so I can get a benchmark of how clean the tone is going through. And it's clean, not bright and starts to get natural over drive the louder I turn up because the EL34's start to over drive.

In my other presets, I have no cab block and I have gone into the amp block and turned power amp sag to zero (or off). So the preset is alway just a pre-amp. The Friedman sounds best so far, but the #800 gives me more dynamics because it reacts better to rolling down the volume to get clean. I have a fender twin preset (sag set to off) and it sounds clean, like it should. I haven't tried a Plexi model because I figure that amps with master volumes should work better.

I don't do anything with the Global Pwr amp since I turn it off in the preset (sag set to 0).

 

[Bman]

Here's a couple of presets. Don't run it into the front of the amp. Go to the FX Return in back.

 

[JoKeR III]

like the guy who designed the device? generally speaking it should be turned off. but in some cases, as you mentioned, it can be turned on. here's what the manual officially says:

This capability is provided for cases when the Axe-Fx II is used with a guitar-oriented/tube power amp that contributes significantly to tone and dynamics.

Doesn't make sense to 'correct' someone when following with a statement that validates their point.

There's a difference between suggesting and insisting something should be done. I'll continue to experiment and find what works best and pass along any info that might be useful to others when they're told something "has" to be done.

Seems like this goes against the whole "use your ears" statement that gets thrown around here at noobs at times. I guess it depends on the member's agenda.

 

[chris]

Doesn't make sense to 'correct' someone when following with a statement that validates their point.

There's a difference between suggesting and insisting something should be done. I'll continue to experiment and find what works best and pass along any info that might be useful to others when they're told something "has" to be done.

Seems like this goes against the whole "use your ears" statement that gets thrown around here at noobs at times. I guess it depends on the member's agenda.

i'm not correcting anything. i'm agreeing.

 

[Roman Rak]

I dug up the recommendations from a legacy manual from my former processor. The settings make sense to what my ears tell me and from what my tube amp buddy told me. "Marshall amps are typically very bright sounding compared to Fender that have more bass". The dial settings make sense. The Roland Jazz Chorus is one of the most neutral amps you can get. All the dial settings are at 5...

I tried a bunch of sound check settings last weekend, including running into the effects return. This has one drawback. There is no volume control on the amp--the power amp section is running at full blast. Why is this bad? Well you get all the full amp idle noise. There is no way to trim it (as in noise gate). Going through the guitar jack in let’s you trim and lower the amp volume and noise.

In the global settings, I have my master out at -12 dB, plus I am adjusting the master EQ as well. This can trim the Marshall brightness plus can lower the gain to another -12dB further if needed. I tried turning the global cabinet simulator OFF, and all patches do NOT sound good at lower volumes--they sound really thin, brassy--the mojo is just not there. It makes sense, as the amp at a clean, low volume is not adding any of its' own cabinet sound. The cabs are turned back ON as they add to the overdrive sounds of all patches. I will just tweak the setting when I finally get to crank the amp.

 

[Bman]

When you go into the FX IN into your DSL is the volume hiss there when the AX8's output volume knob is low? If not then, then are you sure the hiss you hear isn't what it would be when turning up the amp like normal use? I get some hiss also but it's relative to turning up an amp that loud. Also, the AX8's ouput knob IS the volume control for that set up.

Did you get a chance to try one of the presets I posted? That would give us both a point of reference. I would also set up a preset with nothing but shunts across (no blocks, just a signal) and you'll hear the amp's flat tone that you are trying to apply the pre-amp and pedals to. You mention that the Roland is 5'oclock and most likely is a flat, kind of dull tone which will amplify what you send it without adding too much coloration. When I run nothing but signal into the FX-In, I get a soft, dull tone. It's the canvas, if you will.

I briefly flirted with running into the front input but quickly abandoned that idea. There are some folks on the board who prefer that but it's usually thru something other than a Marshal (Fender Hot Rod, for example). The idea of sending a pre-amp colored with a cab into the amp input that is then pre-amped again and then re-colored by that amps speaker/cab is too much for my taste. But there are no rules and if it sounds good then it is good.

The important thing, IMO, is that the signal being sent to the FX-In does not have the power amp section of the AX8 amp enabled. I turn the amp's power SAG to 0, which means off. And I take the cab block out of the chain so there's no worrying about globally turning it on or off.

If you've already checked all that off the list and still get a crappy tone, then I'm as lost as you. You can try turning down the amp output to like -22db to reduce some hiss. That's a bit much but if it fixes your hiss problem then bingo.

 

[Roman Rak]

When you go into the FX IN into your DSL is the volume hiss there when the AX8's output volume knob is low? If not then, then are you sure the hiss you hear isn't what it would be when turning up the amp like normal use? I get some hiss also but it's relative to turning up an amp that loud. Also, the AX8's ouput knob IS the volume control for that set up.

Did you get a chance to try one of the presets I posted? That would give us both a point of reference. I would also set up a preset with nothing but shunts across (no blocks, just a signal) and you'll hear the amp's flat tone that you are trying to apply the pre-amp and pedals to. You mention that the Roland is 5'oclock and most likely is a flat, kind of dull tone which will amplify what you send it without adding too much coloration. When I run nothing but signal into the FX-In, I get a soft, dull tone. It's the canvas, if you will.

I briefly flirted with running into the front input but quickly abandoned that idea. There are some folks on the board who prefer that but it's usually thru something other than a Marshal (Fender Hot Rod, for example). The idea of sending a pre-amp colored with a cab into the amp input that is then pre-amped again and then re-colored by that amps speaker/cab is too much for my taste. But there are no rules and if it sounds good then it is good.

The important thing, IMO, is that the signal being sent to the FX-In does not have the power amp section of the AX8 amp enabled. I turn the amp's power SAG to 0, which means off. And I take the cab block out of the chain so there's no worrying about globally turning it on or off.

If you've already checked all that off the list and still get a crappy tone, then I'm as lost as you. You can try turning down the amp output to like -22db to reduce some hiss. That's a bit much but if it fixes your hiss problem then bingo.

Very good advice and I have lots of things to try. We have 6 weeks before our next gig (a wedding gig) so the volume will be reserved. Best option will be for me to setup my two DSL-20’s and use them at our band rehearsals then I can hear them closer to gig volume. I will try the SAG to 0 and removing the cab block—I think I can bypass or disable it. I will check.

 

[Bman]

Try this preset