How to treat controls that are not on the modeled amp?

D

dumbeat

Inspired
I am trying to see if I can get the Axe3 to sound like my real amps. So far no success.
I was wondering how to treat controls that do not exist on the original model amp.
My amps are several BF Fenders, in different sizes from the mid 60's and a 1972 Marshall 50w.

For example, on my pre cbs Fender Princeton Reverb there is no MID control in the tone stack, however on the modeled version in the Axe there is... Im not sure what value it should be on, since, afaik, in the fender Tone Stack, there is no '0' position, so im not sure how to take the Mid out of the equation.
Same with other controls that do not correspond to the original amps modelled...

Ive been trying for 2 days now to get the Axe to sound like my Princeton Rev.
Im monitoring in mono on an ATC studio speaker that is 3 way with 7" woofer, so the Physical size at least should be close enough to get a proper comparison.

It sounds to me like the AXE is really soft and undefined in the low mids and mids , what is considered "HiFi" or "Smiley eq" without the fine definition of the real amp and pick response. It also has a ton of low end that does not exist on the real amp/cab. So i Low Cut the cab IR at around 300hz to come close but still they sound worlds apart. What am i doing wrong? how come the model and the real one sound like 2 completely different amps no mater how much i tweak eq, change cab IR's etc. As if it a whole different amp...

I might be going completely wrong there... Or maybe it just sounds like its own thing and not like the real amps...?
Please give some tips...
 
Put your real amp in another room where you can't hear it. Put a mic on the speaker. Compare that to the Axe Fx.

Otherwise, it is apples to oranges.

For controls that don't exist, use them if you want to. Otherwise leave them at default settings.
 
Still curious about the existance of controls not original to the model in the signal path. Like the mids in a Princeton. But many more. Its like the same set of controls on every model.

Since it claims to be a component level modeling, i dont see how the introduction of none authentic elements in the circuitry can have no effect.
 
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I think it might be nice if the controls on an amp were denoted differently than the other controls both on the screen and axe-edit to immediately discern from amp to amp. Having said that I am both happy and grateful. :)
 
dumbeat said:
Still curious about the axistance if controls not original to model in the signal path. Like the mids in a Princeton. But many more. Its like the same set of controls on every model.
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If you look on the pdf linked here (Yek's Guide to the Fractal Audio Amp Models), the first page that talks about the amps gives an overview of how they are set up. Still applies to the Axe III. Basically, one way to describe it is that anything that is not on the original amp is artificially introduced once you turn the knob.

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Yeks_Guide_to_the_Fractal_Audio_Amp_Models
 
AxeFX III manual, page 58:

"Some models may provide tone controls NOT offered on the original amp. For example, many amps have no Mid control. To faithfully simulate such amps, set controls they are missing to “noon” (or “0” if you are using the “ACTIVE” Tonestack Type). Of course, you may still adjust these “bonus” controls to achieve tones the original amp does not have."
 
dumbeat said:
Still curious about the existance of controls not original to the model in the signal path. Like the mids in a Princeton. But many more. Its like the same set of controls on every model.

Since it claims to be a component level modeling, i dont see how the introduction of none authentic elements in the circuitry can have no effect.
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Because it’s designed intelligently.
 
A Fender tone control at noon is not 0. Lets assume that the extra controls are indeed at bypass at noon. What happens when you go to 1 oclock? Is it arwin reverb tone stack at 1/6 in the full scale? Is it 7/12 in the full scale of Fender style?
A lot is not clear.

Since this is a MODELING device i expect to underatand. Otherwise its a distortion plugin with eq.

I cant reconcile the concept of scientific modelling with so many unknowns. It dont add up.
 
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dumbeat said:
Still curious about the existance of controls not original to the model in the signal path. Like the mids in a Princeton. But many more. Its like the same set of controls on every model.

Since it claims to be a component level modeling, i dont see how the introduction of none authentic elements in the circuitry can have no effect.
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Fractal does not "introduce" new, non-existent controls to amps. Yes, the Axe controls (parameters) are the same for every amp model. Each control is similar to a potentiometer that changes the value of a particular component. If the amp being modeled does not have a particular control (knob) on the physical amp, Fractal has set that control (parameter) to a default setting that reflects the value of the particular component in the physical amp's circuit. Therefore it is component level modeling with the added ability to change the component value. As has been pointed out, Yek's guide is a great resource as well as Axe Fx Wiki that points out these anomalies and how to use them if you want.

Getting to a place where you are comparing guitar sounds rather than amp feel is one of the barriers most users have to overcome when moving into the modeling world.
 
dumbeat said:
A Fender tone control at noon is not 0. Lets assume that the extra controls are indeed at bypass at noon. What happens when you go to 1 oclock? Is it arwin reverb tone stack at 1/6 in the full scale? Is it 7/12 in the full scale of Fender style?
A lot is not clear.

Since this is a MODELING device i expect to underatand. Otherwise its a distortion plugin with eq.

I cant reconcile the concept of scientific modelling with so many unknowns. It dont add up.
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pharmd07 said:
set controls they are missing to “noon” (or “0” if you are using the “ACTIVE” Tonestack Type).
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Please reread that... Is the Fender amp using an active tonestack? I doubt it.

If you want authentic, use the controls that the real amp has.

If you use controls not on the real amp, it won't be authentic... But it will be more flexible. In this case (as always) use your ears.
 
dumbeat said:
Still curious about the existance of controls not original to the model in the signal path. Like the mids in a Princeton. But many more. Its like the same set of controls on every model.

Since it claims to be a component level modeling, i dont see how the introduction of none authentic elements in the circuitry can have no effect.
Click to expand...
Reset the amp block and leave the controls not on the original amp at their default setting. Then, don't touch them. As long as you leave them at default it's equivalent to not having them on the original amp.

For example, if the IRL amp doesn't have a Mid control leave it at the default vaule if you want authenticity when you fiddle with the AMP block settings to what you'd have IRL.
 
<sigh> ... If the control isn't on the real amp and you want total authenticity, don't use it. As the manual says, leave it at 5 (or default). Pretty simple. Obviously this also goes for almost every parameter on every page except Basic, very few of which generally exist on an amp.

Remember that almost every recorded tone we've ever heard has been EQ'd, double-tracked, compressed, notched, recorded thru multiple amps at once, etc - not to mention how many guys mod their amps and speakers, but we never know about it. Nothing is truly "authentic" anyway.

I understand the desire to "understand" every factor in how the AFX works, but really... just plug in and play. Have fun finding sounds that light you up. Inspire others.
 
Many of the real amps contain cheap components with high tolerances and some manufactorers vary what they put in from series to series. So often two original amps do not sound anywhere the same. If you can't get it to match and you already deleted the influence of the IR in the equation (using the same guitar cab to compare?), the last step would be to touch the additional or the advanced controls to get it identical.

My own view on that is different btw: why should I care about the limits of the real amp, I can go further and I even don't need to solder anything.
 
dumbeat said:
A Fender tone control at noon is not 0. Lets assume that the extra controls are indeed at bypass at noon. What happens when you go to 1 oclock? Is it arwin reverb tone stack at 1/6 in the full scale? Is it 7/12 in the full scale of Fender style?
A lot is not clear.

Since this is a MODELING device i expect to underatand. Otherwise its a distortion plugin with eq.

I cant reconcile the concept of scientific modelling with so many unknowns. It dont add up.
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we're having the same conversation in this thread as your IR thread.

FAS gear models amps accurately but is not intended to have every single thing visually match an amp 1:1. it's a modeler, not a clone device. use your ears. if the amp doesn't have that control, leave it at default and don't use it.

this has been said numerous times already. it's is primarily a tone creation device, not an imitation device. it was not created to match your copy of some amp exactly. even copies of the same physical amp don't match exactly when you put the knobs to the same place.

use your ears.
 
Also, highly recommend/suggest that new owners read both the manual multiple times, and other available materials as warranted.

Posting issues repeatedly, which are answered in depth in the manual is kind of silly.
 
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