Pitch Block - What Am I Missing? (Latency Issue)

We don't have control over what's going on behind the scenes in the Axe Fx when a pitch block is inserted, so I think all these methods of measurement might be faulty. Just saying...

The most guaranteed way to measure what we hear is the round trip using a DI track feeding the Axe and recording the Axe output to a new track. Of course the difference between DI e Wet will be the round-trip latency (including all conversions).

To measure only Pitch block latency and take all conversions out of the equation, it's better having 2 presets, only differing by the presence of the pitch block, and calculate the latency between them but still measuring round-trip.
 
What happens if you add an AMP and CAB block?
No clue. Not enough interest to pursue. Just wanted to debunk the 38 ms latency stuff I read above. It did not match what my ears told me. If I have time I'll do another test and see.
 
Not sure if this is some kind of bug or not, but when I first installed FW1.19b and rebooted the AX3 I tried the pitch drop. The virtual capo wasnt implemented yet, but I tried the dual pitch. There was a huge latency. I was surprised because it was quite a bit longer than previous versions. I shut down the AXE3 and restarted. The huge latency was gone. Not sure what happened and am not able to replicate the behavior. Just wondering if this is what decreebass is hearing. Now, I cant really detect any latency, at least on a half step down. It definitely is no worse than "The Drop" pedal.
 
No clue. Not enough interest to pursue. Just wanted to debunk the 38 ms latency stuff I read above. It did not match what my ears told me. If I have time I'll do another test and see.
I don't think you've "debunked" anything. Just made it more mysterious. End to end latency, with an amp and cab block, is most definitely not sub-10 ms like you measured.

What were your pitch block settings?
 
I don't think you've "debunked" anything. Just made it more mysterious. End to end latency, with an amp and cab block, is most definitely not sub-10 ms like you measured.

What were your pitch block settings?
Exactly, especially his attention to detail is questionable. 38ms was never mentioned, only 29 from you & 35 from me which was a guess. Also, no one else has heard how it sounds on my system & there is no way it is anywhere near as low as 9.5, 8.2 or 5.2ms. @FractalAudio, is it possible for a corrupted system setting or something else to cause extra latency in the pitch block? I don't think it is a bad firmware install as the issue has been the same in all the betas & the release that had the new pitch block algorithm.
 
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Exactly, especially his attention to detail is questionable. 38ms was never mentioned, only 29 from you & 35 from me which was a guess. Also, no one else has heard how it sounds on my system & there is no way it is anywhere near as low as 9.5, 8.2 or 5.2ms. @FractalAudio, is it possible for a corrupted system setting or something else to cause extra latency in the pitch block? I don't think it is a bad firmware install as the issue has been the same in all the betas & the release that had the new pitch block algorithm.
So about 20’ish ms is the expected latency here. That I confirmed with the boss. Physics prevent this from being any lower, really.
 
So about 20’ish ms is the expected latency here. That I confirmed with the boss. Physics prevent this from being any lower, really.
Thanks Ian! Now I have something solid to go by. Now I just have to find a way to accurately measure the latency I am experiencing here. My gut feeling is it's more than 20ms but it would be nice to know for sure. It may be that this aspect of the pitch block is not for me but I do appreciate the effort Cliff puts into making the Axe better & better. Might as well ask the boss, @FractalAudio, what would be the best way to test to see what latency I am actually getting? Thanks!
 
Thanks Ian! Now I have something solid to go by. Now I just have to find a way to accurately measure the latency I am experiencing here. My gut feeling is it's more than 20ms but it would be nice to know for sure. It may be that this aspect of the pitch block is not for me but I do appreciate the effort Cliff puts into making the Axe better & better. Might as well ask the boss, @FractalAudio, what would be the best way to test to see what latency I am actually getting? Thanks!
About. That means greater than depending on polyphony and tracking settings.
 
Definitely can confirm between 38 and 45ms latency. Again, this may be fine for some people. One weird thing, and I don't know if this is significant or maybe my ears just started to adjust, BUT (and I'll explain my method below) it seems that the latency gets better or worse - it doesn't STAY at 45ms, and it NEVER gets anywhere near under 20 (as iaresee confirmed with the boss, and as I was able to demonstrate to my own satisfaction), but I'd say it got as low as low-30s-ish. It seemed like when I initially create the preset, the latency is the worst, but then if I go back to it, it seems to get a tad bit better (low-30s), but goes back up (again, hovers in the 38-45ms) range.

Method: 3 Presets
PRESET 1: Control
[INPUT] > [AMP] > [CAB] > [OUTPUT]
19-21% CPU, Immediate (no perceivable latency)

PRESET 2: Pitch Shifter (Virtual Capo, no pitch change)
[INPUT] > [PITCH] > [AMP] > [CAB] > [OUTPUT]
22-26% CPU, 30-45ms

PRESET 3: Delay (Mix 100%, exactly 1 repeat)
[INPUT] > [DELAY] > [AMP] > [CAB] > [OUTPUT]
22-26% CPU (delay set to match PRESET 2's latency)

I basically used the Value knob to cycle back and forth between 2 & 3 (no point in going back to Preset 1, of course). So, of course, it's just based on perception.

I also tried to play along to a drum machine and it just was not happening. It was comical. I remember hearing a long time ago in one of my music theory classes that Bartok or one of those old composers used to practice songs like "Happy Birthday" on the piano with each hand playing in a different key a half step off from each other :) This was like the rhythm version of that; I could strike the string on the downbeat, but the sound just wouldn't come out at the same time! I was going to make a video (in slow mo) and I still might, but I don't think I need to dwell on this any longer. It is what it is. I definitely appreciate the discussion. There is so much to love about just about every other aspect of this machine that I can live with it as it is. That's what god invented having a hundred guitars for, right? Multiple tunings! :D
 
Definitely can confirm between 38 and 45ms latency. Again, this may be fine for some people. One weird thing, and I don't know if this is significant or maybe my ears just started to adjust, BUT (and I'll explain my method below) it seems that the latency gets better or worse - it doesn't STAY at 45ms, and it NEVER gets anywhere near under 20 (as iaresee confirmed with the boss, and as I was able to demonstrate to my own satisfaction), but I'd say it got as low as low-30s-ish. It seemed like when I initially create the preset, the latency is the worst, but then if I go back to it, it seems to get a tad bit better (low-30s), but goes back up (again, hovers in the 38-45ms) range.
I would have to agree with decreebass that the latency seems to change being worse when I first start playing & then varying as I play. Simple, easy strumming I can deal with it but intricate, syncopated funk rhythm playing, forget it. Comically bad as I get totally disoriented trying to stay with a click. I thought it was just my imagination about the latency varying but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one experiencing that.
 
30ms simply shouldn’t result in any perceiveable difficulty playing based upon research I did during my residency year on temporal timing in a wide range of test subjects, including everything from drummer to individuals with traumatic brain injuries. We looked at variances in ability to keep a steady beat, sync to either auditory or visual stimulus etc.

About the best any subjects could consistently produce was around 10ms, with 40+ms being quite average and some being “bad” at 200-300ms or worse.

I know many like to think of themselves as machine like in their timing and precision, but I’ve yet to come across those folks who have single ms temporal timing and or resolution.

It’s late and I don’t want to do the exact math, but we ‘should’ be as sensitive to playing 3 feet vs 10 feet vs 20 feet away from our amps, or other musicians rigs, drum kit etc. I’ve never heard anyone say they need to stay within 10 feet of the drum kit so they can stay tightly synced, right? But that is what happens when you start moving away from the source of sound and need it to travel all the way to your ears.

Now of course this would all be added to any processing latency, so there is a point where it can become an issue, yet I’ve also seen people argue on forums about how such and such interface was unplayable because it had 6ms latency vs a 4ms latency etc, and it’s simply bunk that any human can perceive single ms latency based upon any research I’ve done or read.

There certainly is a point where it becomes “too much” and it is a variable thing, but our auditory systems, as well as our rhymic timing abilities are relatively flawed, and not nearly as machine like as we tend to believe.

I see it again and again though, musicians on gear forums always think they can perceive things that research shows a sample set simply can’t perceive, and before anyone claims that musicians have enhanced temporal resolution abilities etc, keep in mind many research participants are from university conservatories of music etc, and should have as refined temporal and frequency resolution as anyone.

All of which generally comes down to the fact the power of suggestion is a powerful thing, if we think we can hear soemthing, we will, even if we aren’t really hearing it
 
Not sure if this is some kind of bug or not, but when I first installed FW1.19b and rebooted the AX3 I tried the pitch drop. The virtual capo wasnt implemented yet, but I tried the dual pitch. There was a huge latency. I was surprised because it was quite a bit longer than previous versions. I shut down the AXE3 and restarted. The huge latency was gone. Not sure what happened and am not able to replicate the behavior. Just wondering if this is what decreebass is hearing. Now, I cant really detect any latency, at least on a half step down. It definitely is no worse than "The Drop" pedal.

Really? that sounds like what I'm hearing at the moment. Would you guys mind posting a sound clip of your preset half a step down and a whole step down clean and dirty? That way we can see if we are getting the same thing. If it's no worse than the drop then pedal then it sounds like we are getting something totally different than you guys.

Cheers

Paul
 
Hey all.

I just updated to the latest FW and my detuned patches sound terrible, with noticeably worse latency than before. I then changed the type to 'Virtual Capo' from the 'dual shift' I was previously using and... instant bliss! Insignificant latency and much, much more cool than it was before.

So, if you're having hassles with detuned patches, it's worth a tinker to make sure you're using an appropriate setting in the pitch block. The new Virtual Capo was the one that sorted it all out for me.

Thank you Fractal!
 
Hey all.

I just updated to the latest FW and my detuned patches sound terrible, with noticeably worse latency than before. I then changed the type to 'Virtual Capo' from the 'dual shift' I was previously using and... instant bliss! Insignificant latency and much, much more cool than it was before.

So, if you're having hassles with detuned patches, it's worth a tinker to make sure you're using an appropriate setting in the pitch block. The new Virtual Capo was the one that sorted it all out for me.

Thank you Fractal!

Hey Sukh,

So you had issues as well? I'm sure I tried switching from the dual shift to the virtual capo modes and still has no luck. I was getting quite a bit of latency like a sort of slap back delay effect. I think I might try and have another look over the weekend.
 
To rule out variables:
  • Guitar in front input
  • Reset the III (Setup > Utility > Reset)
  • Create the most simple preset: IN > PITCH > AMP > CAB > OUT
  • Reset each block
  • Select Virtual Capo
  • Test...
 
To rule out variables:
  • Guitar in front input
  • Reset the III (Setup > Utility > Reset)
  • Create the most simple preset: IN > PITCH > AMP > CAB > OUT
  • Reset each block
  • Select Virtual Capo
  • Test...

I'll give it another go tonight and see what happens. Thanks fellas hopefully this may solve the problem.
 
To rule out variables:
  • Guitar in front input
  • Reset the III (Setup > Utility > Reset)
  • Create the most simple preset: IN > PITCH > AMP > CAB > OUT
  • Reset each block
  • Select Virtual Capo
  • Test...

I did this last night
With poly there was slight latency
With mono it disappeared and worked fine
I dropped one full step and it was decent
 
Hey Sukh,

So you had issues as well? I'm sure I tried switching from the dual shift to the virtual capo modes and still has no luck. I was getting quite a bit of latency like a sort of slap back delay effect. I think I might try and have another look over the weekend.

Hey mate - yes, as soon as I tried my detune patch (we use it for 2 songs in our set, so I'm very used to how it feels), it sounded significantly worse. I had been used the dual shift option previously, but as soon as I changed to Virtual Capo, it was instantly fine and noticeably better than how it sounded with previous firmware.
 
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