Soundguys eqing your signal

pauliusmm

Fractal Fanatic
Do you think its normal for FOH soundguys to Eq your signal wildly?

I usually let them do their job, unless i hear something really weird. I then ask to see how they eq'd my guitar signal and sure enough there is some wild cuts and notches.
It is a bit funny when you think how we tweak advanced parameters in amp block to get these subtle details we want. And then the soundguy eqs the hell out of it and throws a compressor on it.
I usually have low cut around 110Hz already, but most every soundguy does a huge low cut on a guitar signal anyways.

I understand that room and PA system can impact the sound and sometimes it requires some adjustment.
But it seems to me that some soundguys start equing by default without even listening.

So my question is how do you deal with these situations?
Let them do what they want or ask thm to leave the eq flat?
 
It can happen. I have definitely been guilty of lobbing off my fair share when I run FOH. However, I usually tell the guitarist if it's something extreme. Compressors are there too. It's a balancing act. I'd just let them do their job and have fun.
 
In my humble experience, it depends on how big the band is, what type of music and if there are vocals. Most good FOH guys went to engineering school and are trained to mix pop music because of the challenges inherent to dense, vocal forward arrangements which need to translate on even the shittiest consumer playback, like mono in-wall retail installations. It's a serious skill that must be taught. Pop engineers have to use every trick in the book to get 73 tracks to translate on any system. So their default is to put every instrument into a separate, narrow sonic space, usually with fairly extreme EQ and plenty of compression. This is understandable for recording because of the limited dynamic range. But a live performance has much more dynamic range and thus less need to carve out individual space for every instrument. Of course everything needs to be intelligible, but live you can allow for more overlap of frequency ranges and allow more blending, which is what people playing together in the same room actually sounds like..:)

Too many FOH guys try to make everything sound like a "record", instead of a more natural, blended real space live sound. It's part habit, part showing off.

We had our own FOH guy last tour, fresh out of engineering school. Nice guy, good communication skills, but he had that approach described above, even though we are a loud, heavy 3pc in instrumental band! Needless to say it was an issue when he started rolling off everything under 200hz on my 7 string. I told him that chopping off the fundamentals of all my notes below A was not a good idea in any universe. Not sure he would work with us again, but I tried to my best to get him to try a different approach with mixed results.

That's a long way around to the following advice:
If you have a big, detailed guitar tone you've worked hard on, be blunt upfront and tell the FOH person: "If my guitar is too big, try compression first, cutting an easy slope of lo mids/lows and mild compression second". Hopefully they will respect you for being upfront and clear about what you want, or at least more cautious about doing anything extreme.
 
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Haha, FOH EQ is the least of your worries as a guitarist. When the venue is empty, it's all meaningless anyway, you can spend forever sounchecking and the first song will still sound like trash once people are in the venue and you are onstage, there's nothing you can do by then. The monitor mix/engineer is your domain, not the FOH. Just feel lucky if you haven't been completely turned down in the mix.

We put a lot of trust in FOH engineers and generally they do a good job.
 
Haha, FOH EQ is the least of your worries as a guitarist. When the venue is empty, it's all meaningless anyway, you can spend forever sounchecking and the first song will still sound like trash once people are in the venue and you are onstage, there's nothing you can do by then. The monitor mix/engineer is your domain, not the FOH. Just feel lucky if you haven't been completely turned down in the mix.

We put a lot of trust in FOH engineers and generally they do a good job.

Not by that description they don't. If that's the case, the trust is decidedly misplaced.

A good FOH assesses both situations and adjusts accordingly when the audience arrives. The two situations are not unrelated.
 
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I would only worry about it if the sound was off....If the sound is good, it's just meaningless numbers that you shouldn't concern yourself with. Could be to account for room deficiencies, system components, or a squill ion other issues. You need to trust that guy.
Thanks
Pauly
 
I always started with everything flat & went from there, that way I knew everything I had to work with, but I always had the luxury of time. I’d dial everything in individually at soundcheck, then really put the final polish on it during the first song & stay on it all night.
Probably the best thing you can do is just tell the guy where you are cutting, the more info he has the better. He knows the room & what he needs & doesn’t need frequency wise, & hopefully he’s good.
 
On my last show the sound guy was like - "Your tone is great, i just added a bit of low pass to reduse sizzle". I was proud.
I don't eq my presets. I treat my amp sim as if it's just a mic'ed cab, and all the eq'uing or anything like that is done in the mixing.
However, sometimes the sound guy does go wild and my tone becomes something that doesn't sound like intended at all...
On small stages, when your cab is also there, stronger PA eq isn't a big deal
 
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I use a high pass of 80-100Hz on my AFX cab block, and the sound guys normally does the same on the desk (so either way it doesn't make any difference). Other than that they leave my EQ flat on FOH because I dial in my patches to fit in a live mix rather than to sound good on their own. Having said that, I'm pretty happy with how they sound on their own as well, still get a good solid tone out of them.

My advice is, dial in your patch for an 'in the mix live' sound, then normally any cuts that the sound guy does to the FOH shouldn't make much of a difference because you will have already compensated for that (that is IF the sound guy knows what he/she is doing).
 
I mean, I let them do their job. Usually just saying “hey, I’m running direct and already low/high passing” is enough for them to listen and go “oh that’s fine” and leave the channel flat (or at least as flat as possible given the room).

What’s frustrating is the ones who don’t actually listen and tweak, and just leave their super-notched-out EQ settings that they dialed in for a 57 on a Fender combo, lol. Or alternatively the occasional “direct never works for guitar” dudes. But those are the exception and not the rule, good sound people I’ve dealt with tend to just get excited about how simple I’m making their job when I say I’m running direct and don’t need monitors since I’ve got my own.
 
Regarding low cut:
I think applying the same low cut twice does make it sound worse/thin.

I usually make my presets Foh ready, thats why im not happy when they make these drastic cuts sometimes.

I would not care much for what they do to the Foh, but sometimes they have the same sculpted signal to your monitors, and it is hard to even play when you dont like how it sounds.

Im exaggerating this a bit, and obviously its not always like that, usually everything is fine.
 
Generalizing, but usually when I’ve had guitarist dial in their ideal mix it sits poorly with other instruments. Guys would say things like “my guitar isn’t loud enough” but they fail to realize that foh sound isn’t that same thing as what they want to hear in a monitor wedge. This isn’t to say sound guys can’t be poor, but generally they know the system and venue and dial in everything to sound pleasing in a band mix, trying to let all the instruments sit well and be hear without the audience or owners saying it’s too loud, harsh etc. it’s a tough job for sure.

I’ve always had good luck going direct as it makes their job easier, giving them a signal that doesn’t need much. Never had anyone do any crazy eq that isn’t required. Also doesn’t really hurt if you low pass at 100hz and they hit the 80hz cut, it’s not changing the tone, so while redundant it’s nothing to worry about really
 
I figure they'd be doing it to a mic'd amp and cab anyway, so it makes sense they'd do it to the axe. Most of the comments I get from soundguys is "that was really easy to work into the mix". Most of the comments I got when i used a tube rig was "any chance we can turn it down mate?" so that's an improvement!
 
Seems like a bit of overthinking it.

I let the FOH do whatever they think is best.

I'm more concerned about my performance / vocal first, then monitors / in ears second, after party third (which at my age tends to be one glass of wine and falling asleep in a chair). FOH is not on the radar.

If they don't know what they are doing, then having the guitar player try to "school" them, probably won't make it better?
 
I use a high pass of 80-100Hz on my AFX cab block, and the sound guys normally does the same on the desk (so either way it doesn't make any difference). Other than that they leave my EQ flat on FOH because I dial in my patches to fit in a live mix rather than to sound good on their own. Having said that, I'm pretty happy with how they sound on their own as well, still get a good solid tone out of them.

My advice is, dial in your patch for an 'in the mix live' sound, then normally any cuts that the sound guy does to the FOH shouldn't make much of a difference because you will have already compensated for that (that is IF the sound guy knows what he/she is doing).

Replying to my own post, how egotistical is that.....!

Just to clarify, when I said I dial in my patches to fit in the live mix, I didn't mean by volume (this is up to the sound guy and I have to trust he will get that right); what I meant was sound wise. I create my patches thinking about how I want the guitar to cut through the mix (hopefully the sound guy will have me at the best volume/gain on the mixer which he normally does). So I make sure my patches aren't too bassy, not too wet (depending on the song). I generally try keep to a specific spectrum and hope that I cover that range well enough with a good tone.
 
Replying to my own post, how egotistical is that.....!

Just to clarify, when I said I dial in my patches to fit in the live mix, I didn't mean by volume (this is up to the sound guy and I have to trust he will get that right); what I meant was sound wise. I create my patches thinking about how I want the guitar to cut through the mix (hopefully the sound guy will have me at the best volume/gain on the mixer which he normally does). So I make sure my patches aren't too bassy, not too wet (depending on the song). I generally try keep to a specific spectrum and hope that I cover that range well enough with a good tone.

I guess thats what everybody does :), at least gigging musicians. I gig with my Axe for past 10 years, and i think i learned alot how to dial in the tones to sit in the mix.
My problem is usually when some soundguys are doing eq without listening to it first and deciding if it really needs it, just because they learned somewhere that it is good to cut X freq on guitars. Or even better if last night he cut X freq on guitars and it sounded really good.

Its usually the venues who provide sound engeneers and most of the time you never know who will do this job. There is no way to know weather the guy is expirienced or not.

Basically my question is:
If your sound is right 90% of the time and doesnt require much eq in most cases, can the room/Pa in the rest 10% impact it so much that you need these drastic cuts?
I think NO. Am i right? Should i be bothered if they use a drastic processing on my signal?
 
The last time I played the sound guy was a good friend of mine. We talk guitar tone all the time. He knows I want him to do whatever is necessary to make it fit in the mix, but to also tell me per patch so I can incorporate the changes in the Axe.

I was disappointed when I looked at the board afterwards. High pass - 80Hz. Good there. But why does the low end look dropped off so much? Oh yeah, huge cut at 135Hz with an uber wide Q. So I question him gently. He says, that must have been on there from the last guy. Ugh. At least he was very complimentary about how the guitar sounded in the mix.
 
Don't get me started. Oops, too late.

I've never worked with a "sound man" that didn't slap high/lowpass filters and eq on my guitar without even hearing it first. They follow an insane ritual of "standard procedures" that are myths perpetuated by the ignorant and the lazy.

My guitar through the FOH with the typical "sound man" treatment sounds like squashed midrange mud. I invariable have to ask him to take off everything. No highpass, no lowpass, no eq whatsoever, no compression, no effects. The A/B comparison always shows that removing the filters and eq sounds far superior to the bullshit standard practices they all seem to cling to with no real idea why. When I ask them "Do you really think all that eq and filtering sounds better?", they inevitably answer "No". When they claim that it "competes" with the bass and kick, I have the bass player and drummer play along with me. It then becomes immediately obvious that the claim that the small but significant amount of low end in my guitar "competes" or muddies the mix in contrast to the overwhelming lows coming from the rhythm section is ludicrous.

Play the intro to ZZ Top's Tush (or countless other iconic isolated tones) through a subwoofer crossed over at 80 Hz. You'll be surprised at how much energy is down there on many of them. Not nearly enough to "compete with the bass and kick" like these meatheads believe, but enough to cause the guitar to sound totally emasculated when it is removed outright, especially with palm mutes. It's all about balancing the spectrum. But they can't be bothered, so they cut it with a machete.

The best benefit of the doubt I can give them is that they just assume that the guitarist will come in with a tone that is out of control in the lows and highs. But rather than take the time and care to listen and balance, they go the lazy route.

End rant.
 
Do you think its normal for FOH soundguys to Eq your signal wildly?

I usually let them do their job, unless i hear something really weird. I then ask to see how they eq'd my guitar signal and sure enough there is some wild cuts and notches.
It is a bit funny when you think how we tweak advanced parameters in amp block to get these subtle details we want. And then the soundguy eqs the hell out of it and throws a compressor on it.
I usually have low cut around 110Hz already, but most every soundguy does a huge low cut on a guitar signal anyways.

I understand that room and PA system can impact the sound and sometimes it requires some adjustment.
But it seems to me that some soundguys start equing by default without even listening.

So my question is how do you deal with these situations?
Let them do what they want or ask thm to leave the eq flat?

I do musical theatre and I let FOH do their work - they are primarily worried about the 20+ wireless mics on stage. But, they do get to us musicians eventually.

I made it a goal to have a FOH-ready sound and dialed it in by gently asking the FOH engineer if they had to do any EQ on my sound.

Last couple of shows (different venues and staff) they took it as is.

I’ve landed on a high-pass at 85Hz and low-pass at 6500Hz in the cab block.
 
I do musical theatre and I let FOH do their work - they are primarily worried about the 20+ wireless mics on stage. But, they do get to us musicians eventually.

I made it a goal to have a FOH-ready sound and dialed it in by gently asking the FOH engineer if they had to do any EQ on my sound.

Last couple of shows (different venues and staff) they took it as is.

I’ve landed on a high-pass at 85Hz and low-pass at 6500Hz in the cab block.

That is my point. I already have low cut much more than that, and usually they cut it anyways.
 
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