Real Vox AC15 vs Default Axe

App12 said:
It is interesting that Matt would not make a recommendation of an FRFR but left it up to others to comment on.
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Everyone has their favorite FRFR, and there's not much that Matt or anyone else could add to the discussion that hasn't already been said a hundred times elsewhere on the forum.


App12 said:
Sorry, one more question - if I were to go with an amp and cabinet, do I need to buy a series of cabinets to account for single, double, four speaker cabinets? How does one account for the different speaker types or is that negligible on the sound?
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Every cab sounds different. So much different that the cab has a big effect on the sound. You would need many, many cabs to account for all the choices you have in the Axe-Fx.
 
guitardoc said:
What speaker is in your AC15? You may have a blue bulldog in it and it delivers a completely different sound than greenbacks.

That said, I can relate to what you experience and imho it’s got nothing to do with real cab in room vs. modelled miked cab. When I listen to records of me playing my miked real AC they sound fullbodied with rich harmonics. The records of me playing the model in the axe sound much less lively, even dull by comparison. I haven’t gotten around to do much tweaking in order to achieve better results, but those tweaks could surely only change nuances of the sound whereas the whole flavour is different. Haven’t tried to tonematch my AC yet though. IMHO the AC models are not the best in the Axe, other amps are way better modelled imho, eg. marshallesque ones.
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I've found the same problem with my vibroverb. Tried lots of IRs but can't match the amp's tone. Even recorded with a cheap Thomann's SM57 clone the amp has a body, most noticeably in the plain strings, the AXE (we'll, the AX8 in my case) can't reproduce. The recordings I've made of my amp sounds full and clear but the AX8 sounds brittle, thing and a little "boxy", like there were less frecuency range, less presence if it makes sense.
 
When comparing a real tube amp with a model, you have to use the same exact cabinet (or IR of that cabinet). The cab is significantly critical to the tone. Using two cabs (one real, one an IR of a different cab) will render two totally different recordings.
 
You have to also keep in mind that the room the IR is shot in vs your room will make a difference and also the fact that you’re not using the same exact amp, nor speaker for that matter. All these things can account for quite a big difference between your Amp/Cab/Speaker in your Room vs the Modeled Amp/Cab/Speaker shot in another room played through a FRFR.
Ya have to understand a microphone is like your ear. If you put your ear where the mic is, that is the sound it’s picking up, (for the most part) it’s not getting all the room reflections like you do standing 5-10 feet away. So I would argue that if you listened to your amp by placing your ear exactly where you placed your mic, the sound would be awfully close to what an IR or recorded guitar track sounds like & you would lose all the amp in the room vibe. And do incredible hearing damage as well. So don’t do it obviously.
 
fisioaura said:
The FRFR solution only works for me at big venues. In small-middle clubs you need a real cab
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How so? The way I see it, 99% of the audience have never heard a guitar amp direct; their only experience is from recordings or through PA systems. So the band will know the difference, but does anyone really care what the drummer thinks? :confused:

I suppose you could argue that, "The best tone is the best tone", and that the audience should get the best sound that you can give, even if they wouldn't recognize it as such. My very limited experience is that small venues are where the "amp too loud on stage" syndrome really becomes problematic, and the drummer usually sets the lower limit on the volume. So using real cabinets means that the FOH has to lose control over the mix to some degree and then the overall sound suffers and the audience loses out that way too.
 
I've used Fractal almost 10 years, real amps/cabs/pedals for 20+. I still use FR cabs, guitar cabs AND tube amps to this day, depending on scenario.

Here's MY thoughts, in no particular order:

1). This stuff is FUN! Enjoy the journey.

2). The best (mic'd) guitar sound I can personally deliver INTO A MIXER CHANNEL comes from a Fractal amp model and cab block. Hands down, no contest. Maybe Bob Rock or Rick Rubin or... maybe some of you guys can do better recording with real amps, but I sure as hell can't! I can't crank amps loud at home anyway.

3). In the jam room or on a weekend pub stage with my bands I still prefer the sound and feel of a real guitar cab. I recently bought a CLR too, best FR box I've heard yet, but it still didn't change my mind. I do like open-back cabs, that might have a lot to do with it.

4). Flexibility off the charts win for the Fractal, it can morph into ANY amp or cab or effect chain you could possibly want. If you actually need that, then great, but if you really just end up emulating one sound of that one amp, then you might as well use the real amp. Fractal is overkill.

So for recording or LARGE gigs I'd go Fractal FRFR, for my live weekend band rig I'm back to amps/pedals.
 
youre still just describing cab sensation/perception and nothing about how anything is more organic than the Fractal or how the Fractal has shortcomings.
 
If you are mic’ing a cab to FOH you are in essence technically sending it an IR. If you are running monitors you are hearing an IR of your cab and you amp in the room mixed also with the FOH. If you are using your amp for all your monitoring your stage volume is most likely too loud and the FOH Mix is surely suffering because of it. An amps sound projection is very directional both tone and volume change drastically when you move around the room. If it’s too loud, the sound guy can not turn you up in the FOH Mix so you are too loud in one spot in the room, and completely gone in another, like your not even playing. Obviously there are some exceptions, but as a general rule this holds true.
 
Yeah,it´s all about sensations.... an amp just fills the room like drums, bass... just like the frfr doesn´t. Obviously you need an appropiatte amp for small clubs. More than 10-15 Watts cranked is too loud for a good mix. The speaker is another critical element in the sound projection. Blue alnicos are very very directional. For me, the good live tone is the mix of the speaker axis sound (the chime. What axe delivers) and the low end, body, tell it what you want...that you get from a real cab. My 2 cents
 
fisioaura said:
Yeah,it´s all about sensations.... an amp just fills the room like drums, bass... just like the frfr doesn´t.
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I have to disagree, however this does raise an interesting question/thought/point.
First off though to address a guitar amp filling the room like drums or bass. Especially in the case of bass. Totally different frequency range & the ear can’t differentiate where low frequencies originate from, this is why, for example, it’s not critical where you place a sub when setting up a home theater.

Anyway, back on track.. as far as FRFR & the question/thought I was thinking about at the beginning: when I think about them, I break them down into two different types. The ones that are like Guitar Cabs like the AccuGroove & Friedman varieties and the ones that are Self Powered PA Speakers. I know that the Self Powered PA Speakers are designed specifically in such a way that they have a wide dispersion, creating the largest area for the stereo field possible. My question is: I wonder if any of that was taken into consideration in the design of guitar cab style? Or perhaps those were designed more to emulate the cab in the room sound? But I would think if that were the case it would defeat the FRFR to some degree. I’m just wondering if they are indeed a lot more directional like a traditional guitar cab vs a PA Speaker.
Unfortunately I can’t offer a personal opinion on the guitar cab style as I’ve never played through one nor heard one. I know there’s a lot of people who absolutely love & swear by them, so I’d really like to hear them. Ultimately I’d like to do an A/B between a pair of both types.
 
Rex said:
Everyone has their favorite FRFR, and there's not much that Matt or anyone else could add to the discussion that hasn't already been said a hundred times elsewhere on the forum.
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Hey Rex - the reason I found it strange is that after the actual Axe itself, the choice of FRFR (if you go that way instead of cabs) seems to have a the next largest impact on the sound. What FRFR system is being used to check the accuracy at Fractal Audio? If it sounds accurate to the amp being modeled on their system then it would then increase the chance that it would sound good if players used the same setup. Right now I don’t have much confidence that what I am hearing through my speaker sounds like the Vox amp they modeled (unless what some have suggested is correct and there is an issue with the Vox models).
 
If your K12 sounds anything like the K10 I once owned you won't be able to come close to what the AXE can sound IMO...
 
App12 said:
What FRFR system is being used to check the accuracy at Fractal Audio?
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I can't answer your question with any accuracy. But I do know that, a couple of years ago, Cliff bought a pair of Event Opals.
 
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