Real Vox AC15 vs Default Axe

So, the choice is to use a cabinet and adjust amp models to work with the limited range that speaker allows. Which may be all one needs. Or use FRFR and have an infinite palette of speaker IRs to work with, which will open up a vastly greater range of amp tone options as well, but with a slightly different 3D experience.
What happened is that I showed up to a band rehearsal with my $2,500 axe and FRFR and a new guitarist shows up with his $600 amp and in the room my whole setup just sounded lacking in comparison. Now when the rest of the band kicked in then it changed the dynamics some as now I have better control of my audio, monitoring etc. but the real AC15 just sounded better one-on-one. So I went with a third option (to the two you mentioned) and bought one. Best of both worlds! But wish that the Axe could capture the dynamic / harmonically rich sound of an amp in the room. Even in a recent clip posted for the Axe III comparing a real amp, the Axe and a competing product, many people were able to pick out the real amp vs the axe vs the other product in the thread which means that even recorded it is not quite the same.
 
. Even in a recent clip posted for the Axe III comparing a real amp, the Axe and a competing product, many people were able to pick out the real amp vs the axe vs the other product in the thread which means that even recorded it is not quite the same.
Not really... Most felt the two were extremely close. Additionally, that comparison wasn't really about tone.

The bottom line is this: if you want a cab in the room (not amp in the room), you need a cabinet... In. The. Room.

If you take that AC15 and mic it up in another room you're going to find the result very similar.

Remember that an FRFR setup is emulating a mic'd speaker... It's never, ever going to sound the same. Some people don't like that... But it is what you've been hearing on recordings forever.
 
I’d be extremely happy to be able to reproduce the sound of my mic’ed real AC with the Axe (amp + cab modelling). Sorry, but it just doesn’t sound close.

Again, I don’t want to compare apples to oranges (AC in the room to amp + cab modelling) nor apples to apples (AC in the room to amp modelling through AC speaker in the room) but oranges to oranges (mic‘ed AC to amp + cab modelling).
 
Ultimately, there is no way to exactly recreate the sound of a speaker cabinet in a room with FRFR. Just as you can't recreate the sound of a saxophone in a room, or a piano in a room or anything else. The speaker in cabinet is a resonating instrument in itself and should not be confused with speakers for sound reproduction: which is what FRFR does.

A sax has sound coming from the bell, sound from the keys, etc.: and it all mixes together in space. A guitar speaker cabinet has a resonance, and a speaker which is beaming a different frequency profile and phase relationship at various angles off the central axis and this all mixes together in space so that no location sounds exactly the same as any other: One step away sounds different, even to the extent that what one ear hears is subtly different from the other just by moving the head. This sense of subtle difference sounds "organic". An open backed cabinet and room reflections ups the ante. This is why engineers speak of a sweet spot for the mic: as every placement sounds different. And why IR mixes combining different mic placements might be preferred for a more general character profile. FRFR is designed to recreate sound that will be the same over a much wider field, and so has greater phase and time coherency in space. And a consistent sound field for an audience.

So, the choice is to use a cabinet and adjust amp models to work with the limited range that speaker allows. Which may be all one needs. Or use FRFR and have an infinite palette of speaker IRs to work with, which will open up a vastly greater range of amp tone options as well, but with a slightly different 3D experience. That said. I've been able to get very close to my actual speakers. A little reverb and enhance for in the room ambience from stereo output. Over the more than a year I've had the AX8: I've gone from preferring using a real cabinet to preferring FRFR in stereo for most situations.
Perfection
 
The FRFR solution only works for me at big venues. In small-middle clubs you need a real cab

I'm of the same mind.

For small to medium rooms, I'm happier with a real amp and pedals.

I still use my Fractal rig sometimes for convenience though. Depends on my mood :)

I'm thinking of doing all our spring and summer shows with just AC guitar and a DI box. Just to sharpen up my playing.
 
I’d be extremely happy to be able to reproduce the sound of my mic’ed real AC with the Axe (amp + cab modelling). Sorry, but it just doesn’t sound close.

Again, I don’t want to compare apples to oranges (AC in the room to amp + cab modelling) nor apples to apples (AC in the room to amp modelling through AC speaker in the room) but oranges to oranges (mic‘ed AC to amp + cab modelling).

Are you making that comparison with the mic'd AC15 in another room, where there's no way you can hear the un-mic'd sound?

If you plug your Axe Fx into a flat power amp and then into your AC15 cab, can you get them comparable?

If not, talk to Fractal because that's a modeling accuracy issue.

If you can, then it's a matter of IR choice.
 
QSC K12 is not a great choice for FRFR in my opinion. I have them and I have a set of CLR'S and a set of Friedman's and the K12 is not even close in comparison.
 
QSC K12 is not a great choice for FRFR in my opinion. I have them and I have a set of CLR'S and a set of Friedman's and the K12 is not even close in comparison.
There seems to be an ever growing list of more and more equipment to purchase and cart around to try sound like a $500 amp
 
There seems to be an ever growing list of more and more equipment to purchase and cart around to try sound like a $500 amp
It’s not about sounding like a $500 amp. It’s about sounding like a few dozen different $500 amps, a few dozen $1000-plus amps, and a few $20,000-plus amps. And about $50,000 worth of effects and stomps. And being able haul them all to a gig.

If all you want to do is sound like one $500 amp, I think you’re better off buying the amp.
 
It’s not about sounding like a $500 amp. It’s about sounding like a few dozen different $500 amps, a few dozen $1000-plus amps, and a few $20,000-plus amps. And about $50,000 worth of effects and stomps. And being able haul them all to a gig.

If all you want to do is sound like one $500 amp, I think you’re better off buying the amp.
Interestingly, that is what I thought too when I bought it but looking at the patches I tend to gravitate to one or two that I really use. You may not have read the whole thread else you would known that I’d did buy an AC15 and you are right - am I am better off for it as there is just something organic and rich about the sound.
 
Interestingly, that is what I thought too when I bought it but looking at the patches I tend to gravitate to one or two that I really use. You may not have read the whole thread else you would known that I’d did buy an AC15 and you are right - am I am better off for it as there is just something organic and rich about the sound.
Yes, I read the thread. And you made the right choice. For me, after eight years of using Fractal products, I could never be satisfied with a single amp. Or stomp. Or reverb. Or...

Come to think of it, I've never been satisfied with a single amp at any time in the last few decades.
 
Are you making that comparison with the mic'd AC15 in another room, where there's no way you can hear the un-mic'd sound?

Yes. I compared the actual sound and recordings additionally.

If you plug your Axe Fx into a flat power amp and then into your AC15 cab, can you get them comparable?

I’d say it’s about 90% there (I used a Matrix 1000 fx). But it’s still lacking body and harmonics (if that description makes sense).

Mind you, it doesn’t sound bad, it’s just ‚not quite there‘. Maybe it’s to do with the cab irs. I didn’t compare hundreds of cab irs though because I think that the default irs in the Axe have been auditioned by many and deviate by nuances only (I mean the ones made for certain types of amps of course).
 
Yes. I compared the actual sound and recordings additionally.



I’d say it’s about 90% there (I used a Matrix 1000 fx). But it’s still lacking body and harmonics (if that description makes sense).

Mind you, it doesn’t sound bad, it’s just ‚not quite there‘. Maybe it’s to do with the cab irs. I didn’t compare hundreds of cab irs though because I think that the default irs in the Axe have been auditioned by many and deviate by nuances only (I mean the ones made for certain types of amps of course).
Yes. I compared the actual sound and recordings additionally.



I’d say it’s about 90% there (I used a Matrix 1000 fx). But it’s still lacking body and harmonics (if that description makes sense).

Mind you, it doesn’t sound bad, it’s just ‚not quite there‘. Maybe it’s to do with the cab irs. I didn’t compare hundreds of cab irs though because I think that the default irs in the Axe have been auditioned by many and deviate by nuances only (I mean the ones made for certain types of amps of course).
My next suggestion would be to take the mic'd AC15 sound that you like and shoot your own IR, and then compare again. My guess is it would get you quite close.
 
My next suggestion would be to take the mic'd AC15 sound that you like and shoot your own IR, and then compare again. My guess is it would get you quite close.

Ok, next time I am in the studio I’ll ask the engineers to shoot an IR of my AC.

But still, wouldn’t the standard IRs be shot with perfection and auditioned to be perfect by many?
 
Ok, next time I am in the studio I’ll ask the engineers to shoot an IR of my AC.

But still, wouldn’t the standard IRs be shot with perfection and auditioned to be perfect by many?
That is usually the intent. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... One person's idea of perfect tone can be very different from another's.

Unless the speakers, mic(s), mic placement, etc is all the same they will sound different.
 
And the other question I would ask REDD, is close in comparison to what exactly? Do you have all the amps for those in the Axe that you use including the $20,000 mentioned or how would one really know? Yes after spending a lot of money on a stero CLR system it might sound great to me but how does that actually compare to the actual amp that was modeled? It would be nice if there was a library of sounds of each amp that was used to create the model so you could play it through whatever monitoring system you had (K12/CLR etc) and then one could compare it to their amp and dial it in. It would be amazing if Fractal Audio came out with a speaker / cabinet that would capture the sound of the amp they are recording. It is interesting that Matt would not make a recommendation of an FRFR but left it up to others to comment on.

Sorry, one more question - if I were to go with an amp and cabinet, do I need to buy a series of cabinets to account for single, double, four speaker cabinets? How does one account for the different speaker types or is that negligible on the sound? Given the whole IR focus I am assuming. I would need several different options to account for different amp speakers? To ensure that front of house gets the same sound I am hearing on stage would I then mic the cabinet (and specifically the speakers if I put different speaker types in the cabinet?) up and how does that affect the overall sound as we are not blasting the venue with FRFR CLR speakers?
 
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