Tone is in your fingers debate

Sixstring said:
Yes! and this is to my point... maybe my wording is not the greatest, the terminology that has been so loosely used is the part that people take to the grave and are unbending when it comes to this phrase "tone is in the fingers" it's such a misused term and a half truth at best but also a great debating topic because of it!
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I agree 100%
 
henryrobinett said:
I have an example I use that blew me away. One of the many things I do is I teach guitar in prisons. We were auditioning for a few inmate bands. When auditioning singers, bass players or drummers, keyboardists, I played guitar. But when auditioning a guitar player, I sat out and took notes. I used the in-house Strat and a Fender Twin. I didn't pay too much attention to the EQ. It was just a functioning amp/guitar. I had one guy who loved the way I played, marked down all of my settings, yet I never even paid attention to my settings.

One guy came up and took the guitar and played. He sounded terrible. OUT of TUNE and just terrible. I asked my assistant, another free man, whether I sounded like that. He said you sounded NOTHING like that. "You sounded great!" I thanked him. Night and day, which is what I hoped he would say.

The other guy who copied down all of my settings always sounded like him. And I sound like me no matter what guitar or amp I use. Now of course, if you're playing metal or grunge, or rock, tone has a LOT to do with amps, pedals, string gauge, guitars. But I still maintain it has to START with your hands. Not just your fingers. I suspect you'd recognize Guthrie Govan even if he were playing acoustically.

I believe 75% of the sound emanates from your hands. If you can't play, no guitar or amp combination is going to make you sound good. And certainly not going to help make you sound like Pagey, or whomever. I think the chasing gear as a solution for finding the lost tone thing, is a lazy person's quest. Playing guitar is hard work. I think it's more work than most guitar players expect or plan on.

My two cents.
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Cool story! but again aren't you describing style and technique comparing your playing style to the inmate that sounds like his skill level was not up to the task? I have a question... If you had turned off the amp and just played the guitar acoustically would it have been as inspiring to the inmate? without the volume, drive, warmth all the mids and highs it would have just sounded like an unplugged electric guitar right?

To say that 75% of the sound emanates from your hands doesn't make sense especially if you turn off the amp. In the context of a mix you wouldn't even be heard. I guess my whole point is to be able to describe correctly all of the aspects of what makes up the encompassing use of the word "tone". To simply say tone is in the fingers is an incorrect use of the word tone.
 
An interesting exercise is take an electric guitar, tune it, & leave it unplugged.

Take your phone and hit record.

Pass the guitar back and forth between a guitar playing friend and yourself playing the same chord progression or riff.

Listen back.

Even with two players of the same skill level and trying to play the same way, sometimes it doesn't sound like the same guitar acoustically upon playback.

Multiply that difference with how a rig can amplify those fundamental changes to the source sound.

It's technique, skill, ergonomics, bone density, body fat ratio, the differences how the guitar is held or floating against the body, position of both players in a room versus the listener's position, ratio of flesh to bone in each of the fingers & hands, dimensional differences and ratios between different sized hands, etc.

You can notice that difference in timbre between players with a phone recording without rotating one knob on an amp.

I heard with my own two ears Larry Coryell, Bucky Pizzarelli, & John Abercrombie pass the same guitar back and forth plugged into the same amp with the same settings strum the same A chord during warm ups for a session. Each player sounded different.

If tone is in the rig with players of that level using a nice rig, they should have sounded the same according to the OP's hypothesis. It did not hold in my listening experience.
 
solo-act said:
Expression is in your fingers.
Tone is in your rig.
Your fingers/hands influence & manipulate tone coming out of the rig.

IMO saying tone is in your fingers is like saying color is IN a painter's fingers...nonsensical BS.
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This pretty much sums it up...

It's not an either or situation, it’s the sum of the two which will define you tonally and sonically…
 
I've always thought it to mean a an artist can be inspired and be inspiring to you, on lots of different rigs.

The inspiration is about the music and the artist and less about the gear.
 
I did not post any such thing your posting words in my fingers sir! I wrote that "tone is primarily a function of EQ and not so much your hands, though I will admit how you play (technique or style) can affect tone to a degree!" As you can see I have allowed for such nuances as can be fathomed, invented or scientifically proven! I can still twist the EQ knobs and decimate their sonic foot print "tone" in the mix.
 
Of course the knobs affect tone. But so does the guitarist.

Take one guitar and one amp. Plug one into the other, and pass it between two players. It'll sound like a better amp in the hands of the better player.
 
kgk said:
...EQ cannot control the "fingerprint" of a guitarist, and that comes through in two ways, vibrato (left hand) and pick attack (right hand).
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And hammer-ons, and pull-offs, and glissando, and muting, and...

Just muting by itself offers a whole spectrum of tonality, depending on how firmly you mute, which hand you mute with, where you mute in relation to string nodes, and whether your muting choices are accidental or purposeful. There are many ways in which the player's hands print his signature on the sound.
 
Playing style can affect tone TO A DEGREE the passing of the guitar to different players is a given... of course you will hear a difference. I thought my original post was pretty clear as well as the restatement but apparently not.

I'm suprised that not one person has mentioned the TONE knob... Humm roll that all the way off and pass that same guitar between your favorite players and I'll bet no matter how they play they will never affect the TONE in the same manner.

Same goes for the Neck and bridge pickups! Tone is not just in the fingers and thus far I think Solo-Act's post best describes with little words!
 
If you are reducing the definition of “tone” to mean the frequency response of the rig when a string is struck then fingers don’t matter that much true. (Although pinch harmonics totally change the frequency response of the rig so even that argument fails). Yah, you can’t use your fingers to put a high pass at 4000 Hz, and yah you can’t do a severe mid cut but I don’t think that most people are talking about just filtering when they say a guitar player has great tone!
I think the only argument you are really making is that EQ isn’t in the fingers but even that is only half true, pinch harmonics totally cut the bass from the sound so they have a huge effect on tone. You can’t replicate pinch harmonics with EQ either.
Ever listen to Brad Paisley? He can make any guitar sound like a spanky tele. That chicken picked country tone is almost completely in the technique he uses. Yah, you could lower the bass and treble and totally change the frequency response but it will still sound like Brad Paisley playing country!
I’m surprised nobody has brought up delay yet! Is delay a part of a guitar players tone? I think it is, it makes the sound thicker, it can add rhythmic elements. Nobody is going to sound like U2 if they don’t use delay. Using a U2 preset in a heavy metal band doesn’t even make sense, it would sound like crap.
We also haven’t really talked about distortion level, using a cranked Dual Rectifier for a fingerstyle jazz tune is silly.

Anywho, a guitar players sound is built out of many building blocks! If your hands and fingers suck at getting good tone you will never sound good! But if your gear is inappropriate for the tone you are going for you still won’t get a good sound!
Arguing about this is like arguing about what is more important in baking a cake. Is it the ingredients or the way you bake it? If you put onions and dirt in your cake it will not be a good cake! On the other hand if you bake the cake until it turns to ash it will also taste terrible! You have to have both!!! You have to have good fingers and you have to have an appropriate rig. It’s not a one or the other thing! You could argue about the percentage of importance but it’s still just a silly argument because it depends on what tone you are going for! Chicken picking is probably like 80% fingers. Smooth jazz is probably 80% rig set up. Metal is probably a nice 50% depending on the song.
 
I'm leaning toward a 50/50 mix. That way I can see both sides and remain neutral. So half in the fingers and half in the EQ. I have played some rigs that really sound horrible. Did my ability suddenly decrease? No, my ability remains, but the sound of the rig is still horrible. I have played some rigs that sound amazing. Did my ability suddenly improve? No. Music is sound and the musician makes the sound. If the musician is inspired by the sound, he or she expresses more. I think it is the magic combination of the right abilities through the right gear. If it is just in the fingers, why spend so much on gear? We'd all be playing through a Pignose. The real question is, if a guitarist leaves NYC at 6:15 headed west, and another leaves LA at 3:00 headed east, where and what time will they meet and start to criticise each other's playing?
 
henryrobinett said:
I have an example I use that blew me away. One of the many things I do is I teach guitar in prisons. We were auditioning for a few inmate bands. When auditioning singers, bass players or drummers, keyboardists, I played guitar. But when auditioning a guitar player, I sat out and took notes. I used the in-house Strat and a Fender Twin. I didn't pay too much attention to the EQ. It was just a functioning amp/guitar. I had one guy who loved the way I played, marked down all of my settings, yet I never even paid attention to my settings.

One guy came up and took the guitar and played. He sounded terrible. OUT of TUNE and just terrible. I asked my assistant, another free man, whether I sounded like that. He said you sounded NOTHING like that. "You sounded great!" I thanked him. Night and day, which is what I hoped he would say.

The other guy who copied down all of my settings always sounded like him. And I sound like me no matter what guitar or amp I use. Now of course, if you're playing metal or grunge, or rock, tone has a LOT to do with amps, pedals, string gauge, guitars. But I still maintain it has to START with your hands. Not just your fingers. I suspect you'd recognize Guthrie Govan even if he were playing acoustically.

I believe 75% of the sound emanates from your hands. If you can't play, no guitar or amp combination is going to make you sound good. And certainly not going to help make you sound like Pagey, or whomever. I think the chasing gear as a solution for finding the lost tone thing, is a lazy person's quest. Playing guitar is hard work. I think it's more work than most guitar players expect or plan on.

My two cents.
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I totally agree with this and only add one comment ; I have seen time and time again whether it be a "famous" player or my friend "Bob", regardless of what they are playing through - Bob sounds like Bob, famous guy sounds like famous guy, I sound like me. Whether its through a pignose or Joe Bonamassa's rig - my general "sound" is still the same. Theres a video out there of Joe Satriani playing in some kids basement with an old Squire strat and like a crate amp or something. It "sounds" like Joe - he doesn't need great equipment to sound great - but great equipment enhances his "sound".
EDIT - whoops - looks like Hellbat already found the video I was referring to - missed that the first read thru !
 
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This is an age old debate. Over time, I've basically adopted the stance that tone is all part of a system. That system has components great and small and they all matter for the end result. Picks, strings, cables, amps, guitars, technique, the weather, and whatever intoxicants are/aren't going through your system are all going to have an effect.

Being guitar players, we all have an interest in gear and technique, but at the end of the day, if it sounds good, it is good.
 
Sixstring said:
Cool story! but again aren't you describing style and technique comparing your playing style to the inmate that sounds like his skill level was not up to the task? I have a question... If you had turned off the amp and just played the guitar acoustically would it have been as inspiring to the inmate? without the volume, drive, warmth all the mids and highs it would have just sounded like an unplugged electric guitar right?

To say that 75% of the sound emanates from your hands doesn't make sense especially if you turn off the amp. In the context of a mix you wouldn't even be heard. I guess my whole point is to be able to describe correctly all of the aspects of what makes up the encompassing use of the word "tone". To simply say tone is in the fingers is an incorrect use of the word tone.
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No, I don't think it would have sounded just like an unamplified guitar. Why? Because I BASICALLY always practiced unplugged. Now I practice plugged in, but then, playing the songs, the bends, the vibrato and the general chops, I would have been recognizable. Part of the way I play is a lot about chops. So the way I play sounds similar acoustically vs electric. I'm just playing without dirt, reverb, compression, delay, feedback and EQ. The NOTES are what are important to me. And intrinsic to the notes are the articulations and dynamics, i.e. vibrato, slides, soft, loud attack, legato, bends, note choices. THOSE to me, are the primary musical elements. And those come BEFORE any amp, or EQ treatment.
 
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