Must See - strat trem video

[ColinMolton]

Good shout! Carl Verheyen is a beast

 

[favance]

Yes.

So theoretically for the angled claw setting shown in the vid, there is another setting with the claw straight that would produce the exact same tension.

I think the angle is just a visual aid and makes it faster for Carl to dial in the tension. As he says, about 15mins for him to setup and off-the-shelf strat.

Not sure what you mean... If you listen to Karl's vid, he gets 1 1/2 steps on the G String, 1 step on the B String, and a 1/2 step on the E string. How do you do that with straight claw? This is his secret way of tuning the claw so you can use different strings...similar to a pedal steel guitar. Have you tried this setup?

 

[Bakerman]

Not sure what you mean... If you listen to Karl's vid, he gets 1 1/2 steps on the G String, 1 step on the B String, and a 1/2 step on the E string. How do you do that with straight claw? This is his secret way of tuning the claw so you can use different strings...similar to a pedal steel guitar. Have you tried this setup?

The claw angle has nothing to do with that. When the G is pulled up 3 semitones the b & e will tend to be about 2 & 1 semitones up on almost any guitar & trem system. Lower-pitched strings of the same material (like plain steel) will change pitch faster as you use the bar.

Here's a clip pulling a bunch of chords up to different chords with a Floyd & straight claw. They're all based on the E/D/G/B/E strings going up 3/2/3/2/1 semitones. (The A isn't very useful because it ends up somewhere around 2.5).

 

[1poorplayer]

Not sure what you mean... If you listen to Karl's vid, he gets 1 1/2 steps on the G String, 1 step on the B String, and a 1/2 step on the E string. How do you do that with straight claw? This is his secret way of tuning the claw so you can use different strings...similar to a pedal steel guitar. Have you tried this setup?

I tried it ( obviously ). My trem was higher than the "normal" 1/8" off the guitar after. I don't know about it. I stated before , I'm a strat "newbie". I'm trying to learn. I stumbled upon Carl's video and thought it was worth sharing. Seems like a great player with good ideas. I had a hard time getting my standard trem to return to pitch without the "floating" action. This setup worked for me , but I'm still experimenting.

 

[lauke-lux]

Yeah that's an old myth about the angled claw thing. It really makes no difference. The block and bridge plate are held fixed at 90 degrees and they pivot across fixed points parallel to the bridge plate. The only way uneven spring tension would make a difference is if the bridge plate or block could flex or twist. It does neither unless you've got a really crappy or damaged bridge. If that were really the case, having the tremolo bar mounted off to one side would make the bridge twist like crazy and it would never stay in tune. The string tension itself is also not even across all the strings. They are all slightly different.

The relationship between the pitch change of the different strings is determined by the string diameters and their overall lengths. Thicker strings are stiffer and will stretch less compared to thinner strings at a given tension. Also, on a Strat, the Low E is the shortest string and the High E is the longest string (bridge block to tuning post). Longer strings will have more available length to stretch and will require more pull distance to raise the pitch a given amount. So between the G, B and e strings, the G is the thickest and shortest so it stretches the least and therefor raises in tension and pitch the most when the bar is pulled up.

It's like trying to pick up a weight with a rope tied to it versus a rubber band tied to it. Both will require the same amount of force to move the weight, but the stretching rubber band will require you to pull much further up to reach that force. The stretch is slowing the application of force. The rope that doesn't stretch nearly as much will more quickly reach the required level of tension to move the weight.

You're mixing up two things, string gauge vs elasticity and string tension balance on both sides of the bridge.

• You're right when saying that a thicker string will vary less in pitch than a lighter gauged one, so far no doubt
• Please note the reason for balancing the string tension is not the pitch variation, allthough it will influence as pitch - string tension curves are not totally linear (http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/StringTension.pdf)
• For sure it will contribute to prevent strings from getting out of tune due to the fact that pull on the the backside of the bridge is close or equal to the string tension on the front side. At the sole condition that the nut is working correctly also; as most of the problems related to guitars going out of tune at twang bar actionning are nut problems IMHO

 

[barhrecords]

Not sure what you mean... If you listen to Karl's vid, he gets 1 1/2 steps on the G String, 1 step on the B String, and a 1/2 step on the E string. How do you do that with straight claw? This is his secret way of tuning the claw so you can use different strings...similar to a pedal steel guitar. Have you tried this setup?

As @Bakerman says angling the claw doesn't result in different pitch bend amounts on the strings.

The bridge fulcrum is fixed. Therefore, the angle of the claw doesn't affect some strings differently than others.

In the same regards the tension of all the strings and the tension of all the springs are a combined force. These two forces oppose each other.

The angling of the claw *does* change the combined tension of the springs; it results in an overall tension adjustment.

I still contend the angle is a visual aid that makes setting the tension easier (for Carl).

 

[favance]

How do you explain the difference in tension with a 24.75" short scale neck vs. a 25.5" long scale neck? Also, why do many players w/long scale necks down tune to 1-2 steps in order make it easier to play...tension.

Is this not the same as lengthening/shortening one side pr the other of the claw?

 

[barhrecords]

How do you explain the difference in tension with a 24.75" short scale neck vs. a 25.5" long scale neck? Also, why do many players w/long scale necks down tune to 1-2 steps in order make it easier to play...tension.

Is this not the same as lengthening/shortening one side pr the other of the claw?

Yes you are correct. Changing one side of the claw does affect the tension.

The affect of all the springs is a single force applied to the fulcrum. Having some springs loose and some tight doesn't affect the pitch bend amount.

The key to Carl's method is the equal force of all the strings combined vs. and equal force of all the springs combined. When this is true, the trem acts likes a balance, and comes back to the same point at rest.

 

[Bakerman]

You're right when saying that a thicker string will vary less in pitch than a lighter gauged one, so far no doubt

Different plain gauges tuned to the same pitch? Try tuning your 2nd & 3rd strings both to G, then see how their pitch changes with bar use.

I still contend the angle is a visual aid that makes setting the tension easier (for Carl).

I'm not sure about that. He mentions treble vs. bass string tension just before claw angling at 2:20. I don't think he said it's a visual aid anywhere in the video.

How do you explain the difference in tension with a 24.75" short scale neck vs. a 25.5" long scale neck? Also, why do many players w/long scale necks down tune to 1-2 steps in order make it easier to play...tension.

Is this not the same as lengthening/shortening one side pr the other of the claw?

It's not the same. Changing scale length or tuning alters the string tension.

Adjusting the claw while keeping the same tuning doesn't. It doesn't even really change the spring tension. It just makes the bridge float at a new angle. (This is slightly wrong, but just barely. It would be more accurate to say their torque doesn't change.)

 

[mr_fender]

You're mixing up two things, string gauge vs elasticity and string tension balance on both sides of the bridge.

• You're right when saying that a thicker string will vary less in pitch than a lighter gauged one, so far no doubt
• Please note the reason for balancing the string tension is not the pitch variation, allthough it will influence as pitch - string tension curves are not totally linear (http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/StringTension.pdf)
• For sure it will contribute to prevent strings from getting out of tune due to the fact that pull on the the backside of the bridge is close or equal to the string tension on the front side. At the sole condition that the nut is working correctly also; as most of the problems related to guitars going out of tune at twang bar actionning are nut problems IMHO

You are correct, however in the video he makes it sound like adjusting the claw angle will allow you to adjust the relationship between those pitch bend intervals. My point was that those intervals are fixed by the comparative string size and tension difference at the tuned pitch (in part due to the non-linear tension/stretch characteristics you pointed out). There is no way to adjust that relationship between the G, B, and e string bend amount individually without changing either their tuned note, scale length, overall length, or string diameter. Changing the claw position and therefore spring tension, will change the point of tension equilibrium and therefor the bridge neutral position. That will affect all of the strings proportionately together. For example, if adjust you to get a full minor 3rd up bend on the G string yet the B string is still a bit flat from a full major 2nd up, adjusting the claw will not let you get more bend on the B while keeping the G the same. You'd have to step up to a larger diameter B string or smaller diameter G string and reset everything for those sizes and tensions to change that bend interval relationship between them. On a floating tremolo, spring tension will always equal string tension. Otherwise the bridge will move until equilibrium occurs. Adjusting the claw temporarily raises or lowers the tension, but once you retune to pitch, the total tension on both string and spring sides is always the same as before.

 

[Bakerman]

You'd have to step up to a larger diameter B string or smaller diameter G string and reset everything for those sizes and tensions to change that bend interval relationship between them.

With the plain strings, gauge is irrelevant for this. It's entirely due to the pitches the notes are tuned to. (For wound strings the core-to-wrap ratio can vary and have an effect.)

I recommend testing this by tuning two or all three plain strings to the same note. Then use the bar and see how much each changes.

 

[bradlake]

Bet this guy could settle this debate............

 

[mr_fender]

Tuned pitch is a function of tension, length, and diameter of the string. The three are interdependent. If you tune the G, B and e strings to the same note and push the bar down, they still bend at different rates. Likewise, if you tuned three identical sized strings to G, B and e (different tensions, but same size), it will still bend at different rates because the amount of stretch in the string is different at different tensions and the strings are slightly different lengths due to intonation offsets of the saddles. The rates will not be the same as before, but they are still dependent on length, tension, and diameter at the same time.

 

[Bakerman]

If you tune the G, B and e strings to the same note and push the bar down, they still bend at different rates.

I think you should try this on a guitar. It takes about 10 seconds.

There may be a slight difference due to saddle position/height and distance to tuner if nut is non-locking. The gauge isn't part of the reason for that.

Likewise, if you tuned three identical sized strings to G, B and e (different tensions, but same size), it will still bend at different rates because the amount of stretch in the string is different at different tensions and the strings are slightly different lengths due to intonation offsets of the saddles. The rates will not be the same as before

Actually they will be the same as before, if nothing else changed.

A thinner string increases tension less rapidly as you stretch it some amount, but it's also at a lower tension than a thicker string at the same note. The percentage of tension change is what determines pitch change. Can you see how the initial tension and rate of change might cancel out to give the same pitch rate?

Here's an example. At the same note a plain .020 string will be 4 times the tension of a plain .010 string. It also changes tension (in pounds or your weight unit of choice) 4 times as rapidly as the thinner string. Both of these things are proportional to the cross-sectional area. (.0004 sq. in vs. .0001 sq. in.)

Let's say they're at 20 lbs. and 5 lbs. The note this would be doesn't really matter. If you had room to pull the bar up 3 whole steps, that doubles the tension. The .020 string would increase from 20 lbs. to 40 lbs. tension. The .010 string would only increase 25% as much, or 5 lbs. That's still double its starting tension, and it goes up 3 whole steps.

 

[mr_fender]

You are correct that the tension change rates do cancel out between string diameters if all other things are equal, but in this case they are not. The scale length is different from string to string and that also means that the pivot point for each string's movement is different as well. Moving the bar does not add an equal change in tension to all the strings. The saddle is moving in an arc with a radius that is set by it's distance perpendicular to the pivot axis. The further back the saddle, the larger the arc and the more the tension change you'll get by pivoting the bridge. Since the pitch for each string is already chosen, you would change that position by changing the string's diameter, which would require a new saddle position to intonate correctly along the neck. It's not that the string size is directly causing the bend rate change, but it affects other elements like saddle position that do affect that rate change. It would be a different story on a Bigsby though where saddle position doesn't have a direct impact on tension change since a rotating axle pulls the strings instead of the bridge itself moving.

The point of the whole discussion was that moving the claw will not let you "fine tune" those pitch bend rate as is suggested in the video.

 

[Rex]

How do you explain the difference in tension with a 24.75" short scale neck vs. a 25.5" long scale neck? Also, why do many players w/long scale necks down tune to 1-2 steps in order make it easier to play...tension.

Is this not the same as lengthening/shortening one side pr the other of the claw?

No. It's the same as lengthening/shortening the string. Shorter strings take less tension to reach a given pitch. Adjust the claw doesn't change the length of the strings.

 

[lauke-lux]

Guess this would need a nice mechanical simulation model to have it definitely cleared. Sure, with floating bar string tension should be equal on both sides. As all ends up on one fixing point, the guitar body, it would make more sense if the claw would have only one fixing screw permitting rotation as spring tension varies. OTOH when actionning the bar could there be losses on the saddles that might unbalance the string tension between the two sides = string gets out of tune ? Dynamical behaviour might be the explanation. All this gets too complex for me, IMHO we more express opinions than facts (including myself..). Interesting anyway as it permitted me to discover at least some facts about tremolo setup through various youtubes, at least I found out why one of my strats never keeps in tune at tremolo use, angle or no angle.

 

[Rex]

No mechanical simulation needed. Just tweak the claw so it's angled in the opposite direction, and watch the behavior stay the same.

 

[mr_fender]

Tension across the bridge is not even. D'Addario has a handy tension chart that shows the tension for all of their different strings at various tuned notes. It's a good rough reference for other strings of similar sizes too.

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Regardless of float angle of the bridge or even if it's decked, the strings must be able to freely move back and forth while stretching in order to reliably return to their tuned pitch. String binding is the biggest problem with non-locking tremolo tuning issues. That's going to be either the nut slots, saddle slots, string trees, tuning post string wraps, or some combination of any or all of them. Double locking tremolo systems remove a lot of those issues since the string cannot move through the nut or saddle at all. The strings are allowed only to stretch along their speaking length, so there's really no string movement elsewhere to bind. However, the bridge must also be free to move as well, so the knife edges and post or mounting screws can't be binding at all either. This is almost always the culprit for floating Floyd style tremolos that won't return to pitch. Changing the float angle and/or the claw angle will not fix any tuning issues cause by string or bridge binding. Those issues have to be resolved first for any hope of a tremolo that stays in tune.

 

[1poorplayer]

Many interesting thoughts have been brought up from this video of Carl. His playing style , combined with his unique approach to trem adjustment caught my attention.

Having over 30 years of guitar playing experience , but only a few weeks with a strat , my take away from the video was :
The float vs decked allows the fender trem to work more evenly to assure return to neutral (in tune ) position , (because of unavoidable friction points and variables , like the tree , nut , saddles , etc , as noted by @mr_fender )
If you were to dive bomb a floating fender trem (VH style for example) , and then release the bar quickly , the trem would counteract by rising slightly above pitch , before returning to it's neutral position. With my "minimal" experience with a strat thus far , this approach worked for me. Rex and a few others think my nut might still need some work , thereafter my strings will return to pitch , after a dive bomb , with the trem "decked."
(Which may be true)

The angle , well , if you want to adjust the claw so the 1st three strings have the exact trem space on upward pull ( before it hits the body ) in order to get an exact stretched pitch , adjusting one screw certainly simplifies this.