FRFR and monitoring as a bass player? I need some advice please.

Tsunamijuan

Tsunamijuan

Inspired
I am in a bit of a lack of knowledge here. I know there's some great people on here that can hopefully point me in the right direction at the minimum.

I recently joined my first band, as the replacement bass player for the band leader (I am a complete bass noob). Making the graduation from mostly running live sound, stage managing, and some band management, and of course a lot of roadie work. I am quite new to bass, but I think the foundation that i have from taking classical/flamenco guitar is helping me fill the voids. The band is a mix of punk/alternative, just short really of metal tones.

Right now I am using a mix of a borrowed Orange 500watt bass amp with 2x12" cabs, and my Axe-FX II XL with a JBL EON615. Which is sadly only about 500watts for the lows (possibly less). Since the power amp is split between the 15" and the horn. This worked great for guitar but its under powered for this arrangement. So I know i need to invest in some new equipment. Which I was planning on doing anyways. I don't want to add a second EON615 cause they have problems with overheating when pushing a large amounts of lows.

They play loud, which is fine to each their own. But I am having troubles being heard rig wise. Not to mention hearing myself, as well as having hearing issues (tinnitus). So I am having to hit this on a two pronged approach. Definitely In ears for myself. I have mixers already and a split snake if i had to go that and handle the mix 100% independent of the rest of the band. But I am looking for monitors that I can use for the axe to provide sound for the rest of the band. As they are not at a point of wanting to invest in ears, or spending time to actually mix independent of yelling at someone to turn up.

The meat and potatoes of this post
I am looking for something that is a good strong setup for bass and guitar in the FRFR department. So I dont need to reinvest in a seperate set of guitar cabs/frfr's. The local alternative music scene is a mix of smallish clubs and bars, and a few large auditorium sized venues. So looking for the middle to higher end of the power range most likely.

I am thinking of getting something like a 2000watt matrix rack amp.
http://usa.matrixamplification.com/rack-amplifers/gt2000fx.html

With some sort of setup from Accugroove ( http://www.accugroovellc.com/ ). I would love to stick with mostly the FRFR side of things. But I am not sure if they are gonna handle the heavy abuse of the lows. Its also sitting in the back of my head to mix the FRFR with something like their "El Whappo" bass cab. But I am not sure.

Would love some advice or other potential bass friendly FRFR's to look at. Possibly something more afforable than this. As the above setup is probably looking at top price of 5000$ or so.

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
The typical guitar "FRFR" (Atomic and the like) are not going to really handle low bass very well, and will fall apart at moderate and high volume. I'm assuming you have very high stage volume since thee EON isn't keeping up. The Orange should be doing just fine for any gig, even with just one 2x12.

Keep in mind that wattage matters very little. In order to simply double your volume, you have to have at least ten times the wattage. Doubling your wattage will tack on 3dB at best. Also, your on-stage monitoring should not be carrying the room, especially in "large auditoriums". Let the PA do the heavy lifting. The sooner everyone in the band gets behind that, the better you will all sound, and the stage volume can come down drastically.

Accugroove made decent stuff (I'm talking the older designs). I'm not sure how well they will work with guitar. The specs on the newer line of gear is VERY suspicious, to the point of where I strongly suspect they are grossly misrepresenting the products. They're also fairly expensive... they gave me some sort of "special" pricing, and my jaw still hit the floor even then.

I personally use speakers from AudioKinesis (http://www.audiokinesis.com), though the fEarful/Greenboy designs (will need to DIY build it, or find someone to build you one) are also very good (http://greenboy.us). There's not many dedicated "FRFR" bass speakers out there. Inherently, bass cabs go fairly low as a matter of course, and any of them with 2- or 3-way designs will handle upper mids and highs with plenty of authority. This is partially why bass players snicker so much when guitarists come around with their "FRFR" speakers :D

What is the makeup of the band? What gear is everyone using? What tuning do you play in?
 
selta to the rescue as always, I figured you would have advice for me and I appreciate it.

Makeup of the band currently is 2 guitars, trading off a mix of lead rhythm and double lead. Synth Player, Drums, and myself on bass. Alot of the bass parts currently aren't written so much as a typical bass part, but more on the guitar/harmony side of things. So far everything that they have thrown at me is standard tuning. I suspect that will change as time goes on. This band is really in its infancy, there is currently no name. Though they have been working and writing for it, for about 7 months or so, with the first show in February.

Drummers on a smallish kit, 4 cymbals, only rack toms.
Lead guitar player is on Laney tube Combo amp (guessing 50 watts).
Band leader /second guitar is on a Orange tube Combo amp again i am guessing around 50 watts, with a 1x12 extension cab.
Synth/keys is currently on a Roland GAIA with a Roland keyboard amp with a single 15" in it. I think its probably 100-120 watts, solid state.

I am not in a position to say to people, clean up your sound some, so we aren't splashing over each other so much. Or to emphasize that we need to be using the PA more, respectively. Partly cause most of them have very very limited PA experience. Or at least, good pa experience. I am the new guy to the band, with a large pair of shoes to fill. But I am in this to grow musically and skill wise. Though I am bringing one of my digital mixers next week, so we can establish a better set of monitor mixes.

When I get into wattage for gear, I find that I like to have as much power as possible if i am dealing with lows. Even though i know the values are often inflated just like HP pissing contests with cars. I find that otherwise I end up limited and over driving the amps with the lows. I rent my rigs out as backline sometimes as well. So just cause i am not using all the power sometimes someone else is. Usually when another audio company has failed to provide gear for a large show. Somewhat isolated and limited area travel wise. But I am still on a budget.

I figured the atomics couldn't handle the type of abuse bass was gonna throw at it. While I am using wattage as example again. I know that most likely the lows from my heavy attacks on the bass, are gonna be exactly the thing that is torture on the amps, Not to mention kill the speaker cones. Similar problem with the Matrix Cab's.

I did find out that accugroove is somewhat close to me as far as northern California closeness is concerned. Sadly the road to where they are located is closed for the next 1-2 weeks due to a slide right now (not that i want to make a 3 hour drive on mountain roads in the winter).

Whats your though of throwing a hybrid design together? A high end bass cabinets, that has a diverse mix of frequencys with the frfr cab. Then possibly setting up a crossover in the Axe-FX?
 
No need to use the xover in the Axe-Fx.

If you look at, say, the fEarful design, specifically the 15/6/1. It'll sound and work well with guitar, bass and more. Before I "moved on" to Audio Kinesis, I was using a 15/6/1 for 7 string guitar, bass or electric violin. It worked very well for all of those instruments. On occasion, I'd also use it with my Korg M3, but that was always limited to studio time or composition, so never loud volume (though I don't have a doubt it'd work well for that at any stage volume). If you build a 15/6/1 (or a 1515/66/1 - two 15s and two 6s), part of the design includes the crossover which from a design perspective is as simple as it is brilliant really.

Also, you can buy precut flat packs right here:
http://www.speakerhardware.com/fearful-156-flat-pack-deluxe-kit.php

Basically, that's all of the wood, crossover components (or even assembled crossover), drivers and such that you need to build a 15/6. It is pretty simple to assemble at home then :).

More volume, and/or more lows is almost always better tackled by adding speaker area - aka, more drivers. More wattage is nice, but you quickly hit a point where adding wattage isn't helping or noticable.

Sorry to drive so deep with fEarful cabs. I really feel that they, and the audio-kinesis I linked earlier, are the only two very good solutions out there for the multi-instrumentalist. They can take a ridiculous amount of power before exceeding x-max on the drivers. They go scary low in response, but keep things fairly even throughout the whole range at the same time. Basically, any well designed two or three way cab should suffice. You don't need ultra lows - you do want good support down to at least 50Hz (+/- 1dB) with a somewhat gentle roll-off lower than that. A lot of speakers will say they'll do 50Hz, or lower... but it'll often be -3dB with a cliff after, or even worse, -10dB.

I totally get not wanting to shake things up too badly, being the new guy. Also, potentially renting out your rig is a big consideration - folks rarely treated rented gear well. So you need something robust. It can take a long time to reign in that volume, too. The main thing being that your front of house sound is really suffering when your stage volume is too high - the person at the board only has so much they can do. Not saying you do this, but it's like the folks who take a half or full stack to a gig where the place will hold 100 people max. Way, way overkill and everything out front is just basically white noise - even vox won't cut through. Few things ruin a gig more than bad sound :D

Transient peaks on bass, especially if you do any slap or heavy pick, can be insane. You may also have issues with the compressor in the Axe-Fx, as a heads up. I still fight mine all the time :(.

Also, keep an eye on that keyboardist's left hand. You'll be dancing around with that for every song. In theory, he/she will lay way off of that and let you handle that foundational role.... but a dizzying amount of keys players don't. Not saying they can't play lows at all (if they're doing like, low crystals, it can be neat), but it can be pretty hard to work there. Bass has it's own unique issues when it comes to sound - it's primary issue stemming from it's omnidirectional nature.

Anyway, sorry for the wall'o'text. I hope I answered your questions somewhere in there. If not, hit me over the head with your question again and I'll try to answer it more directly xD
 
Nah great info here as always selta. Its not a wall of text if its useful information. After all it takes a good number of words to properly communicate so that there isn't confusion.

I knew about compressor setup already, I have a nice stack of compressors (love the old dbx's). But i have had fairly good luck getting what I want compressor wise in the Axe-FX so far. Which is part of the reason for me using it. Cause i know going flat through orange, i can hit the types of lows that cause damage. I seem to have an extremely heavy hand when it comes to bass right now. Which seems to be what they are looking for. But I know it can have problems in other places and as the volume climbs.

As for volume, sadly most places seem to have zero front of house around here. This only add's to PA and monitoring issues. Though If bandmates are willing to allow it. I have a number of friends that would be more than willing to run front of house for me. Since that is generally what I have been doing the last 10 years for their bands.

I haven't had a chance to discuss the synth players rather strong encroachment into the lows recently. But again its the new guy kinda thing when it comes to that. Probably just gonna have too continue to buck up and ignore it for a bit before someone else complains.

btw I was thinking that I probably needed a split cabinet setup to keep the volume under control for the bass. One cab on each side of the stage. Little more expensive, but it certainly allows me to keep the volume lower. Rather than deafening one side of the stage, so the other side can hear.
 
Until you put together the perfect bass FRFR rig...

If the problem is not hearing yourself in the mix—and your FOH sound doesn't depend on your stage sound—consider boosting somewhere around 500-1000 Hz. Sweep it to find the spot that highlights the note definition.
 
Tsunamijuan said:
btw I was thinking that I probably needed a split cabinet setup to keep the volume under control for the bass. One cab on each side of the stage. Little more expensive, but it certainly allows me to keep the volume lower. Rather than deafening one side of the stage, so the other side can hear.
Click to expand...
That's definitely an approach that can work. Not having real/good PAs in the places you play is a drag. As Rex said, EQ is a good way to help with hearing as well, but can introduce its own issues :) - let alone more time for load-in, setup and sound check.

Also, how you position your speaker can play a vital role. You could try putting your EON up on a speaker pole, and also firing it across the stage. I'd raise is about 2.5 - 3' off the ground and point it across the stage, and see if that helps. You'll get more dispersion, particularly of the mids/highs, and won't lose much of the coupling benefit.
 
For some reason I hadn't really thought of flying or putting it on a pole and using it as a side fill. Right now we are just in the studio/practice area. I tried setting up dual monitors and then realized based on positioning of people i was phase canceling myself. Right now i am spending all my time trying to learn the parts rather than fighting with sound issues.

Hopefully on tuesday I will have a bit more time to mess with sounds, before practice starts. But it is what it is.
 
Thanks everyone for the input I really appreciate it.

As usual the community here opened my eyes to More options that I didn't know about.

As fate would have it, I walked into the music store Today and found a cheap used Eden 180 watt combo. Gave it a swirl with the axe and it was a good starting point. I just don't dont have the money to invest in the good FRFR cabs I would like to have at this moment. But I will definitely be looking into these great alternatives that have been brought up. As it sits the in ears by themselves where close to 2k out of my pocket.

The in ears I just purchased will keep me happy. After a little bit of fiddling The combo should keep my band mates happy, with an additional cab on the other side of the stage so they can all hear as well.
 
So realistically I am better keeping my bass cab (Genz benz neox 2-12) and getting a power amp if I want to run this for bass live then? For guitar I am happy with the DXR12 honestly but for bass there isn't really a powered option that is great? That's what I gather from this anyhow.
 
As pointed out previously, it really depends on what your use/need is. For my bands (both heavy metal), I rock a single QSC K12 -- but we have great FOH support, and my band's sound engineer knows his stuff well. For bands that can't control their stage volume, and/or don't have good to great FOH, my setup likely wont work for them.
 
Does the QSC have a better frequency range for bass? I really need to just take the yamaha to a bass gig and see how it responds. It might be amp in the room i am having a problem with, for guitar it is no issue for me but i am used to pushing air with bass. The guitar player in the one band is my music wife and he is using an ax8 and is a bass player by trade usually so we should be able to figure that out.
 
It's pretty much the same design... I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it were the same driver and same basic amp in there, just different DSP. For what I do - Drop-A and B standard tuning - it works just fine. But, if you are very loud, it likely won't be able to do you justice, especially if you're seeking to feel the bass like with a 4x10 or 8x10 gives you. At home and at some rehearsals, I even put F# through it, but that's at a fairly moderate volume, and even that works OK.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom