IEM frustration...

unix-guy

unix-guy

Master of RTFM
So after getting the whole band direct and using quality custom molded IEMs, we've been using them for a couple weeks now... I prepared by creating a preset covering my basic needs by plugging mine into the Headphone jack of the Axe Fx. It is not perfect yet, but getting there.

However, at both rehearsal sessions so far, I have been less than thrilled with my sound. Initially I was thinking it was a mix issue, but tonight I did some further analysis and what I found surprised me.

EDIT:
To better clarify the part below, I am updating this section:
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My routing is this:

Axe Fx-> ART S8 splitter -> Mackie DL32R mixer -> Audio Technica M3L wireless

I've noticed that if I switch between the Headphone out of the Axe Fx and the wireless at the same levels, the audio quality gets worse and has some "artifacts" (not really sure how else to describe it).

So, I tried then to plug in to the Headphone jack of the M3L transmitter thinking maybe this was due to the wireless transmission. The sound was no different....
Click to expand...

In the routing description below, these terms are used for clarity (I hope):

AxeFx (Axe Fx Output 1)
Splitter (ART S8 rack mount XLR splitter)
Mixer (Mackie DL32R rack-mounted digital mixer)
Transmitter (Audio Technica M3L wireless transmitter)
Receiver (Audio Technica M3L wireless receiver body pack)
IEMs (1964 Audio V6s In Ear Monitor ear pieces)

Routing (everything from AxeFx to transmitter is by stereo pairs of XLR cables)

AxeFx --> Splitter --> Mixer --> Transmitter --> Receiver --> IEMs

The output from the Mixer to the receiver is via 2 XLR outputs assigned to my pre-fader AUX mix. Each band member has their own pair of AUX outputs for independent monitor mix.

There are several places in this chain that have a headphone out jack that I can monitor by plugging the IEMs directly in to instead of the feed out of the wireless Receiver:

Axe Fx: sounds good
Mixer: not tested yet
Transmitter: sounds bad
Receiver: sounds bad (same as directly from the Transmitter)

----

Next steps will be to see what it sounds like from the Headphone jack on the DL32R and if that is not better, I'll route the Axe Fx direct to the input of the transmitter... I will also try some other XLR cables out of the Axe Fx.

If anyone has any suggestions or experience similar to this, please share.

Very frustrating to spend this much money on gear to end up with inferior tone :(

Thanks

Kevin
 
Last edited:
I think the problem is that You are connecting headphones out to IEM. I am using Shure PSM300 in PersonalMix mode, left channel is supplied from Axe right 1 output, PA from left 1 output (I use only mono presets), out 2 is without cab sim and going to my G+K amp as backline. Shure has a swith AUX/Line for inputs, as far as I know headphones signal is compatible with AUX, but I have not tried that.

Our Singer uses stereo input into IEM supplied by subgruop stereo mix from the console. We never had any problems with it.
 
Wireless will always sound worse than wired. It's part of the sacrifice of mobility. Was kind of hard reading your path. Are you saying the headphone out sounds worse or better? i'm confused ;)

I run axe stereo to out splitter snake, which goes to 2 channels on our x32, hard left and right. Then out to my IEMG3 and it sounds rad. I was smiling all night last Saturday.
 
It is not worse or better. Line signal is different than AUX/headphones and that can cause some strange sound. I think that there are issues with electric signals that are not compatible. As first, please try to set up Axe outputs copy 1 to 2 and connect output 2 with two cables directly to Your IEM. If it will sound the same as now, maybe that is headphones issue, please try different headphones with Your bodypack.

If direct connection from Axe FX works OK then means that headphone out is not compatible with line in on IEM.
 
Wallygatorr1976 said:
I think the problem is that You are connecting headphones out to IEM. I am using Shure PSM300 in PersonalMix mode, left channel is supplied from Axe right 1 output, PA from left 1 output (I use only mono presets), out 2 is without cab sim and going to my G+K amp as backline. Shure has a swith AUX/Line for inputs, as far as I know headphones signal is compatible with AUX, but I have not tried that.

Our Singer uses stereo input into IEM supplied by subgruop stereo mix from the console. We never had any problems with it.
Click to expand...
I never said i was connecting Headphone out to anything but headphones... Look at my routing in my post. The Axe Fx connected to DL32R mixer via Output 1 XLR cables. Mixer connected to transmitter via XLR cables.
 
I'll reply when i have a few minutes and better describe my routing... Obviously i was not clear.

Headphone out directly to my IEMs sounds fine... It's everything else that doesn't.
 
Double check your gain staging and make sure you aren't over or under driving the Mackie.

Since the quality is still low at the Mackie, I would suspect the cables, the splitter, or the impedance of the in ears vs. the headphone amps.

I use wired in ears (but prefer and use a powered wedge when possible) with a small format Mackie mixer and have no issue with quality.
 
hmm.. nothing on the channel strips that would mess with it? compressor, gates etc? Can you try axe, mackie, iem? remove splitter, although it shouldn't matter.

by IEMS do you mean the wireless included?
 
barhrecords said:
Double check your gain staging and make sure you aren't over or under driving the Mackie.

Since the quality is still low at the Mackie, I would suspect the cables, the splitter, or the impedance of the in ears vs. the headphone amps.

I use wired in ears (but prefer and use a powered wedge when possible) with a small format Mackie mixer and have no issue with quality.
Click to expand...

I have yet to try the output directly from the Mackie.... that is in the next steps for testing.

I was also thinking it could be gain staging, but where my signal is peaking is just about 0dB on the channel strips. I can play with that.

I will be editing my original post to add more details in a few minutes.
 
dpeterson said:
hmm.. nothing on the channel strips that would mess with it? compressor, gates etc? Can you try axe, mackie, iem? remove splitter, although it shouldn't matter.

by IEMS do you mean the wireless included?
Click to expand...

Nothing on the channel strips I am aware of. I also thought about that this morning...

By IEMs I mean specifically the In Ear Monitor ear pieces... nothing else.

Updated original post to follow in a few minutes.
 
Ok - I've updated my original post. Would you take a look and let me know what you think? Hopefully I clarified what the routing is...

I appreciate you all taking the time to read and comment :D
 
Ok, now your routing is clear for me... By IEM I mean the complete Audio Technica unit - try to connect it directly to Axe out and check if there is any difference, then try next step ( splitter ) and you will find device which impacts correct sound.

I do not have the experience with Audio Technica at all, I have tested some LD's, t.bone's to jmp to higher price level and then Shure was for me better than Sennheiser - sound is richer...
 
@unix-guy
I read the entire thread, and am still unclear as to what the problem is - other than it "sounds bad" in your IEM's.
I've been totally IEM for 2+ yrs now (75+ gigs last year) and have WONDERFUL sound in my IEMs (X32 -> Senn G3 -> 1964 A8's).
Gain staging your mix is ESSENTIAL, so check that aspect.
Can you clarify if your issue is with your GUITAR sound, or where it sits in the mix, in your buds or ??
Are you sending BOTH L and R feeds from the Axe to the Mackie?
You also mentioned that your mix fed to the AT's PRE fader... ??
Is that pre-fader to the outputs connected to the AT?
Does the Mackie have level controls over the entire mix going to the AT?
If not, gain staging your mix is going to be tough on the side.. you will be limited to the gain/RF controls on the AT and the volume level on the receiver.
 
s0c9 said:
@unix-guy
I read the entire thread, and am still unclear as to what the problem is - other than it "sounds bad" in your IEM's.
I've been totally IEM for 2+ yrs now (75+ gigs last year) and have WONDERFUL sound in my IEMs (X32 -> Senn G3 -> 1964 A8's).
Gain staging your mix is ESSENTIAL, so check that aspect.
Can you clarify if your issue is with your GUITAR sound, or where it sits in the mix, in your buds or ??
Are you sending BOTH L and R feeds from the Axe to the Mackie?
You also mentioned that your mix fed to the AT's PRE fader... ??
Is that pre-fader to the outputs connected to the AT?
Does the Mackie have level controls over the entire mix going to the AT?
If not, gain staging your mix is going to be tough on the side.. you will be limited to the gain/RF controls on the AT and the volume level on the receiver.
Click to expand...

The sound of my guitar, by itself, sounds good coming out of the Axe Fx headphone output and bad coming out of the transmitter (either wired or wireless).

All inputs to the Mackie are gain-staged via the Main L/R channel strips, and my levels there from the L and R of Axe Fx output1 XLRs are just at about 0dB (in the green, not the yellow).

By pre-fader (using Mackie's terminology) it means that each AUX mixes has independent control of the levels and panning of each channel assigned to that AUX mix, including the main AUX output level. So, yes, I have full control of my mix and levels (aside from main channel input strip gain) from my AUX mix.

The AT Transmitter unit also has an attenuator switch (0/-10/-20) which is set to default of 0. It also has an programmable Trim control (0/-2/-4/-6/-8) set to the default of 0. There are LED level indicators on the front panel of the Transmitter, which are peaking somewhere around 0, but I need to look more precisely when in front of the unit. The manual (consulted after my original post last night) indicates attenuation may be required if you are regularly hitting +3.

Let me know if you need more clarification - you've been a big help so far in getting into the whole IEM thing!

EDIT:

My presets (on clean) are typically just crossing the 0dB mark in the "loudness" meters of the Axe Fx. My Output 1 level is at 28%, which is fairly loud with the IEMs plugged directly into the headphone jack.
 
unix-guy said:
The AT Transmitter unit also has an attenuator switch (0/-10/-20) which is set to default of 0. It also has an programmable Trim control (0/-2/-4/-6/-8) set to the default of 0. There are LED level indicators on the front panel of the Transmitter, which are peaking somewhere around 0, but I need to look more precisely when in front of the unit. The manual (consulted after my original post last night) indicates attenuation may be required if you are regularly hitting +3.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification.. did not quote the whole post, but the part I want to focus on.
I don't think the Axe is the issue, but it is interesting (weird?) that you say it sounds bad thru the AT directly connected to the Axe.
Firstly, being digital, you want your input levels on the mixer to be around -6 or -12dB or [even] lower. Once you hit 0db.. that's it.. no more headroom, just distortion. There's no compression on digital like one used to get with analog.

You might try this while the AT is connected directly to the Axe - as it might mirror your gain levels via the Mackie - and might work?

If I run my G3 at it's default attenuation settings (-3dB) I have a high noise floor and it sounds like poo.
After some experimentation, I now leave the AUX master buss [stereo] levels at detente, set my G3 attenuation to -24dB, and adjust my channel mix (aux) levels accordingly.
That allows me to up the receiver volume levels some and get REAL CLEAN audio.
I'm not familiar with the AT unit, but you may need to experiment with the levels to get it working right.
Seeing your levels at 0db on both is a read flag for me!
This is [really] no different than gain-staging your rig or PA system, with the output going into (tiny little speakers in) your ears!

Let us know if that helps any..
 
s0c9 said:
Thanks for the clarification.. did not quote the whole post, but the part I want to focus on.
I don't think the Axe is the issue, but it is interesting (weird?) that you say it sounds bad thru the AT directly connected to the Axe.
Firstly, being digital, you want your input levels on the mixer to be around -6 or -12dB or [even] lower. Once you hit 0db.. that's it.. no more headroom, just distortion. There's no compression on digital like one used to get with analog.

You might try this while the AT is connected directly to the Axe - as it might mirror your gain levels via the Mackie - and might work?

If I run my G3 at it's default attenuation settings (-3dB) I have a high noise floor and it sounds like poo.
After some experimentation, I now leave the AUX busses [stereo] at detente, and set my G3 attenuation to -24dB !!
That allows me to up the receiver volume levels some and get REAL CLEAN audio.
I'm not familiar with the AT unit, but you may need to experiment with the levels to get it working right.
Seeing your levels at 0db on both is a read flag for me!
This is [really] no different than gain-staging your rig or PA system, with the output going into (tiny little speakers in) your ears!

Let us know if that helps any..
Click to expand...

No, I never connected the AT directly to the Axe Fx. I have used ONLY this routing:

AxeFx --> Splitter --> Mixer --> Transmitter --> Receiver --> IEMs

What I have done is directly connect the IEM ear pieces to the AT headphone output... but the signal TO the AT is always using the above routing.

The gain staging at the mixer channel strip is per Mackie instructions in their manuals.

It is possible that none of the value I listed are dB... I need verify that. What I do know is that that per documentation for the gear, the value of "0" (or slightly above) on the input level indicator (both the Mackie and the AT) are viewed as "optimal".

Mackie's manual says you should be raise the Gain until the input meter is "bouncing between green and yellow" and then raise the channel fader to 0dB. Likely I am confusing the input Gain and fader levels :(

I will check the Gain setting once I am home.

I'm going to try and work my way through the chain to see where the issue it coming, including make as many variations of "directness" as possible to try and figure out where the issue is being introduced.
 
unix-guy said:
No, I never connected the AT directly to the Axe Fx. I have used ONLY this routing:

AxeFx --> Splitter --> Mixer --> Transmitter --> Receiver --> IEMs

What I have done is directly connect the IEM ear pieces to the AT headphone output... but the signal TO the AT is always using the above routing.
Click to expand...
Can you try going Axe -> AT (using XLR's) and see what you get there, and try adjusting the attenuators..
You can always reset them to zero... -6dB was considered "optimal" for the G3.. so my -24dB is WAY off the charts, but works well!

Have you tried the buds with other sources to rule them out as the issue?
 
s0c9 said:
Can you try going Axe -> AT (using XLR's) and see what you get there, and try adjusting the attenuators..
You can always reset them to zero... -6dB was considered "optimal" for the G3.. so my -24dB is WAY off the charts, but works well!
Click to expand...

Yes - definitely will do that.
 
The buds sound fine on my iPhone and directly out of the Axe Fx headphone amp, so I am pretty certain they are not the issue :)
 
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