Dumble Note flips

[Rex]

...I've gotten the same sound or something very very close while monitoring through headphones...I was definitely isolated from any speakers. When it happened I was quite surprised. It almost seemed like there was a real fast change in the eq as if certain frequencies were increased and others were muted in the moments after the note was struck.

It didn't last a long time. I couldn't hold a note Santana style, but for a few seconds the harmonic of the note just rang out, and no it wasn't pick harmonics. There was the fundamental for a brief moment and then harmonics.

I can't say for sure what caused that (I wasn't there ), but I've seen that happen when you barely brush against a string at one of its nodes. If it only happened once, it was technique, and not the guitar or the amp or feedback.

 

[Rex]

I always thought note bloom is due to the change in frequency content of the note as it decays.[/qupte]
That's part of it, for sure. With acoustic feedback, as the note decays, room become more dominant. Also, the distance between the speaker and the guitar determine what frequencies will be emphasized. The strongest emphasis will be at frequencies whose wavelength is equal to (or half of, or a quarter of, or an eighth of) the distance between speaker and guitar.

...as it decays the ratio changes so there is more mid and upper frequency energy present. This causes the right amp, set the right way, to compress a bit more at first, with the fundamental frequency being the dominant tone. Then as that lower frequency dies out the amp compresses less and "sings out" the mid and upper frequencies.

That's also part of it...the amp coming out of saturation as the note decays.

 

[jsletner]

I always thought note bloom is due to the change in frequency content of the note as it decays. If you strike a string not too hard (say the B string mid way up) - not hard enough to get fret buzz - the beginning of the note contains more of the fundamental frequency than harmonic frequencies. Then as it decays the ratio changes so there is more mid and upper frequency energy present. This causes the right amp, set the right way, to compress a bit more at first, with the fundamental frequency being the dominant tone. Then as that lower frequency dies out the amp compresses less and "sings out" the mid and upper frequencies. Or, maybe it doesn't have anything to do with frequency, just amplitude causing the same phenomenon. My $0.02.

I like your theory. Don't know if its right, but it makes sense to me.

 

[jlynnb1]

i have listened to that video 3 times now and have yet to hear it.....what am i missing??

Robben is a great player, but that tone sounds like something you could get with any number of amps in the axe.

 

[PacoCasanovasOld]

as I said, I know the "bloomy notes thing" the main reason behind note bloom comes from the power supply and the dimensions from filter caps and dropping resistance! It's the dimension of the dropping resistor in the load line of the power supply that was used specially for the two overdrive triode stages - make this resistor bigger, lowers (dropping) the voltage when hitting the notes hard, because of more current needed for the triode stages in the preamp- you can simulate this with some "un-necessary-parameters" (according to Cliff), called preamp dynamics and the dynamics time constant in miliseconds, which should be the dimension of the filter caps and the dropping resistance together (time constant is t = R x C).

Put your preamp dynamics parameter up to approx. 30% and dial in approx. 20-30ms time constant - then listen what happens.
It's very similar to +B constant and sagging - but those parameters worked for the power amp section.

@ Scott: Nice tone, a bit too modern for a typical dumble overdrive sound - put a skyliner tonestack in pre-position, then turn up the center frequ. up to 1287Hz, you get the special "chirp" on the mids.....you'll get there....

I don't use any of the advanced stuff anymore. I've even been contemplating removing Dynamics and Pick Attack because they're just not needed IMO.

As I said - please don't do it!

 

[Rex]

i have listened to that video 3 times now and have yet to hear it...

Gotta say I agree with you. I'm not hearing anything more than a great guitarist playing through a great amp.

I Googled "dumble note flip." In the first three pages of results, I found this thread, and two other threads on different forums, for a total of one person who claims he heard it, and two people asking about it. The rest is mostly links to info about a Harry Potter game.

 

[Tex Axe]

According too the man himself in his opinion this can not happen in a crystal lattice but only in tube amps..
But when Dumble said that this technology was not around. In fact it might be quite possible using fractals.

I have a Dumble sitting here its a 50 watt amp but dont let that fool you..
Also the SSS, Phonic, and ODSR those being very very accurate representations of those amps down too the original parts and glass.

I will tell you this right now we are going to find out because im going to shoot Ir's of each of the amps naked like it says in the book.
Then compare them sitting here side by side.

I dont have the mic selection Ownhammer does to do something like this or Cliff for instance but im working on getting this done with help from
my friend Funeral very soon.

Like Watson and Holmes people like Watson and Holmes.
I wonder if there would be any interest in a bundle set like Ownhammer only with these style amps ?
I also own the ssq12 which is the 4 12 cab as well the 2 12 cabs.
So I plan to do them all..

Plan on that right now cause its gonna happen.

I need a little help from the axepert John <funeral>

Then its going too look alot like Christmas just you wait and see.

Now whos been naughty and whos been nice ?
Do I have any hell yea's on this idea ?

I cant hear too well so please say it loud..

 

[Geezerjohn]

Guess I'll put in my 2 cents. I think a lot of it has to do with the guitar. I have a mid 90's PRS 24 and it does the "flip" all the time. I get it more with my main lead tone which is a blend of a Silver Jubilee and a Two Stone than I do with my Dumble preset. Also, if you use a lot of noise gate, it is a sure fire way to kill the flip. Most of my guitars give me some flip. I get more with humbuckers than I do with single coils. That said, the PRS is my best flippin' guitar. Suhr Modern is # 2 on the flippin' scale.

Man, only guitarists can obsess over this stuff. Perhaps we are flipped out.

 

[PacoCasanovasOld]

I'm not hearing anything more than a great guitarist playing through a great amp.

Here is a good example (and this is not related to harmonic feedback), listen to the decay after the string attack - this were "bloomy notes". You can get these also with totaly clean amps - with a spongy power supply for the preamp stages....

 

[LVC]

I stick with what is available stock in the Axe (I have had zero need to explore any further) but in this instance if done right I would be interested!

I wonder if there would be any interest in a bundle set like Ownhammer only with these style amps ?

 

[Tex Axe]

Done right I would be interested!

How do we do it right ?
Tell me in detail and make mic suggestions I have 57 58 ndk 468 and some cardioid mic's.

I am 1000% committed too doing it right and so im open for suggestions.
Bought my Dumble just before Cliff did..
The other amps ive been dialing in for the past 2 years.

I chased these amps for 25 years I built an amp cabin with them.
I am all ears on how it should be done right so please chime in especially if you have done these already and can point me to the best results.

Its important its done right I agree and am open to learn how.

 

[LVC]

I have no clue

However, you have some extreme drool worthy gear -- I am sure you will have zero problems getting someone with the skill sets needed to help you get it done right!

How do we do it right ?
Tell me in detail and make mic suggestions I have 57 58 ndk 468 and some cardioid mic's.

I am 1000% committed too doing it right and so im open for suggestions.
Bought my Dumble just before Cliff did..
The other amps ive been dialing in for the past 2 years.

I chased these amps for 25 years I built an amp cabin with them.
I am all ears on how it should be done right so please chime in especially if you have done these already and can point me to the best results.

Its important its done right I agree and am open to learn how.

 

[PacoCasanovasOld]

PS:



One is cliff's nr. 213, the other is my revoiced mesaboogie according to my specs! PS: I had revoiced the boogie before cliff bought the 213 . Can you tell which one is the AxeFxII ?

PS: the revoicing was done by ear on my kitchen table, it was not a clone project (with some experience from over 1500 amp repairs and modifications over the last 15 yr) - I never owned a dumble neither clones or similar stuff.....

I'm currently doing a video-review a new d-style pedal from a new company based in Phoenix, Arizona called "WizPedals" - more to come this weekend, check their site for updates!

 

[Rex]

Guess I'll put in my 2 cents. I think a lot of it has to do with the guitar. I have a mid 90's PRS 24 and it does the "flip" all the time. I get it more with my main lead tone which is a blend of a Silver Jubilee and a Two Stone than I do with my Dumble preset. Also, if you use a lot of noise gate, it is a sure fire way to kill the flip. Most of my guitars give me some flip. I get more with humbuckers than I do with single coils. That said, the PRS is my best flippin' guitar. Suhr Modern is # 2 on the flippin' scale.

Man, only guitarists can obsess over this stuff. Perhaps we are flipped out.

John, can you define "flip" for us? In the OP, LVC says it happens when you slur down a whole step (not sure what slurring is). I'm not hearing anything different in the whole-step intervals in the video he posted.

 

[Rex]

Here is a good example (and this is not related to harmonic feedback), listen to the decay after the string attack - this were "bloomy notes". You can get these also with totaly clean amps - with a spongy power supply for the preamp stages....

Is that what "flip" means? Note bloom?

The word is obscure to me. I've never heard it before this thread. And this thread has more posts about it than the rest of the Internet combined.

 

[Tex Axe]

I have no clue

However, you have some extreme drool worthy gear -- I am sure you will have zero problems getting someone with the skill sets needed to help you get it done right!

Maybe it will generate some interest and come to light.

Thank you for your comment I chased this rabbit down a hole and came up with some nice carrots.

I love the axe fx II just floored over it and recorded today for the first time making a bass patch for a buddy of mine
it worked flawlessly and plastered the biggest smile across his face ive seen in 3 years.

He kept saying ooo and awe and oh yea during playback..


I owe the limited knowledge I have to Funeral John here his lesson kicked into gear during the session and I remembered what to do
and knocked the project out in minutes which enabled my buddy to cut the track in one take.

His expression while playing and during playback was priceless.. Smiles across Texas here tonight.

I will be relentless in getting these done correctly. Funeral John is very solid and has the best ears I know of round these parts...

It will be done right or done again and again until it is. The SSS is on the bench right now and just like Cliff did its being measured and documented.

I will follow suit on every one of them and shoot the ir on each. While im doing that im documenting the actual values measuring with meters.
I am quite motivated to do every one of them now and make them available.
Im going to bundle them.

I just need to know the best route to doing it.
Then hotbake the mic's in place and get that sweet spot..

I am open for mic suggestions..
I have wgs65s, ev 12l, fane 100, scumbacks 2 different versions
celestion 25s vintage for speakers..

To me the 65s and evs sound the best speaker wise for these amps
but I was shocked with scumbacks with odsr or phonic amp.

I have the highplains drifter and quinn ODSR as well phonic aside from HPD
the other amps were re done down to parts and glass.
They are ready to record right now.

Every one of the amps are dialed in ready to record.

The Dumble~man amp I changed the caps in myself and I plotted every part in it and measured them.
I agreed to do this for the original owner.

I am ignorant on shooting Ir files but give me a minute and let me see what I can bring too the table..

 

[LVC]

John, can you define "flip" for us? In the OP, LVC says it happens when you slur down a whole step (not sure what slurring is). I'm not hearing anything different in the whole-step intervals in the video he posted.

When you do slurs it is more pronounced and easier to pick out. The note flips/jumps harmonically

Man, only guitarists can obsess over this stuff. Perhaps we are flipped out.

Yes -- we Obsess over these things -- cool thing is with a little "Axe" experimentation we should be able to figure out how to get the notes to flip or even do cart wheels. :lol

 

[Tex Axe]

PS:



One is cliff's nr. 213, the other is my revoiced mesaboogie according to my specs! PS: I had revoiced the boogie before cliff bought the 213 . Can you tell which one is the AxeFxII ?

Sounds great here on Jbl studio monitors ... Im guessing the 2nd clip is the real amp I hope im wrong...!
Really really so close its hard to tell..

I built tweed fender type amps 23 years ago and we did all the vintage repairs in Austin Tx on fender vox and marshall amps and no body had a Dumble then But Srv and EJ.
Currently drawing the schematics too all of these amps... For Reference on repairs if needed.
All the parts were changed and improved as the amps were vanilla from the builders..

The clone builders dont include the magic beans they give you the vanilla parts..
Thinking since not many own real Dumbles they can slide bye.

I do own a real one and they cant slide bye me now.
Because I can compare the real deal and the clones..

I can point and tell you which clone builders are selling vanilla amps and making people wait a year or more.

I own them I dealt with them in person own the amps they sent and did the repairs to make them better
had to pay for that again to make them right.

I dont want vanilla I want the entire sunday.

 

[Galo]

Crack it up...volume baby!!!

I had this buried in another thread and I thought it warranted its own thread.

One of the things I have trying to figure out with the dumble amp and clones is how to make them do the famous dumble note flip (I think that is what it's called).

It is an effect that happens when you slur a note down a whole step after a run (or anything for that matter). With the dumble when you do that - the note just jumps out at you. Folks like robben ford and Larry Carlton do that all the time and it just sounds freaking amazing. The note (or notes ) just jump out but stay focused and smooth.

As an example listen to the intro of "the Miller's Son" by Robben ford.

This is a terrible video and recording but you get the idea. This is not the tan dumble tone which brandon cloned in the "Ojai" -- but is considered his " BlueLine" dumble tone.




I started experimenting and found that a little bump around 320 makes the "flip" more pronounced and organic.

If anybody has some other ideas on how to make the "dumble flip" notes better -- please share!

 

[Jul]

To me this is like contemplating the square root of -1.... ( I failed my first take at the required Electric Theory course back in college)... That being said - Beautiful sounds generated by everyone on this thread though - carry on! Maybe I'll learn something of value here. Been loving Robben Ford's and Larry Carlton's playing for a long, long, time.... is this a path to emulating their tone?