"Pick Attack Issues" thread deleted?

vAmp

Fractal Fanatic
I only recently bookmarked nikki-k's
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/60425-pick-attack-issues-2.html
because I found it valuable critique and she may have meant the same as me. [I have not said I was a fan of hers or not]

(mine: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...red-tube-vs-axe-fxii-debate-3.html#post705268
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...re-version-7-00-public-beta-8.html#post707098 )

Just a few days later, I'm seeing the thread seems deleted? :-x
Is that part of the regular forum cleaning and will good info continue to "get lost"...?
Or was this a selective deletion of a weak point in the Axe?

A few days ago, I updated from 7 to 9.02 and after all the talk of improved dynamics, I was shocked to hear it seemed to have grown worse on the "dynamic maximum" side of things... It felt like I was playing a 1st gen modeler [on that aspect alone, like there was no room to play any harder].

However, I only played around an hour and may only have been playing presets with some form of compression. I'll keep my final verdict after Axe Edit is reincarnated.

Previously, Cliff commented that "EMG's compress like crazy."
I have since done the 18v mod to my EMG guitar *and* I played 9.02 with my SG with P90 pickups. However, I could not hear a difference with regard to my critique between these "vastly different"(?) pickups...

Like I mentioned before, I'm not losing sleep over it, but I will always find it weird how many don't know what is being talked about or that the problem doesn't seem to be acknowledged (or denied, deleted?).
I'd be happier with "I know what you mean, but sadly it can't be done..."
Or receive a clue in what could be wrong if others don't feel like that... (I *did* note a bunch of info how to maximize the "dynamic maximum" that I have not yet tried, which is why I'm not on my final verdict yet.)

I just saw this thread on TGP from someone saying "[interested] But, I am concerned with feel, overall tone, dynamics, etc."
It's sad that I can not honestly inform/warn someone like that if this kind of info is magically disappearing here...
It's not that I wanna scare them off, on the contrary. But if someone expresses "feel" is of the utmost importance to him, IMO it's more important than general that he tests well and knows what to test for.

FYI, I'm playing the Axe either with one of the two mentioned pickups and either into 2 "Fratomics" actively, or passively with a Matrix GT 800FX.
Some of these combo's may have more compression than others, maybe I'm picking harder than I realise (unlikely, cos I'm rather the feeble type :mrgreen), ... Again: no final verdict. Many things still to try (but it seems nikki-k already tried everything).

Happy Holidays 8)
 
As with Nikki K, I believe you would be happier with a different product. I have no idea what a "dynamic maximum" is but if it is real and it bothers you perhaps there is another product that doesn't exhibit it and you would be happier with that.
 
vAmp, did you check if Pick Attack and Dynamics in the Amp blocks are set at default (0%)?
 
Also, I'm curious if you tried setting the modeling back to v7.xx (1st option on the Global menu) to see if you regain what you were used to hearing?

TT
 
V9 was the biggest improvement IMHO. I was happy with V7 and was hesitant to upgrade because I was happy with my main tone. But after going to V9 I cant believe how much more punch I feel when doing palm mutes! To me it really feels like an amp.

That being said, I am NOT using an amplification system. I go direct into my protools rig and listen through my Dynaudio BM5As. I've been an audio engineer most of my life and have been recording guitars for over ten years, the axe 2 has beat every other modeller, and has replaced every amp I owned. For me, I know how guitars should sound RECORDED. To me, the AFX2 is the best thing since sliced bread! And V9 added even more life to my magic black box :)

Do what Yek said, if its not those issues, do a full factory reset and start with a very simple amp/cab patch with NO amp compression. If its still a problem, take Cliffs advice and just move on... it just might not be the right choice for everyone's tastes.
 
I don't get it, dude, my rig is MUCH more responsive setting pick attack in the sweet spot of +8 - +11. No way is it less dynamic! I auditioned this on my 'standard patches', and could hear it, but first I made a 'naked' patch: amp, cab, nothin' else. As others have said: compression will totally slew your results. Most of my patches don't use a compressor, so the difference was immediate and palpable. Oh, and of course the Axe 'defaults' to a noise gate, which I've either turned down or off, can't remember. That *could* also mask the impressive increase in dynamics from the Pick Attack param.
 
I have since done the 18v mod to my EMG guitar *and* I played 9.02 with my SG with P90 pickups. However, I could not hear a difference with regard to my critique between these "vastly different"(?) pickups...

If u can't hear/feel the difference between those two types of pick ups u might have bigger problems unfortunitely. My old guitar player had EMGs and they sounded completely different than my les Paul's stocks. Not sure why ur EMGs and passives are sounding the same because they def shouldn't.
 
I'm certainly no expert in "pick attack", but I wonder if this is ultimately a cab sims/FRFR "thing" compared to real guitar cabs? I'm a real guitar cab user, trying to adopt FRFR. I've got what I think is a very good FRFR cab (thanks Mick/XiTone!), and I'm getting closer to fully accepting FRFR because of it, but the one thing I'm noticing that is quite different between my FRFR cab and my real 2x12 guitar cab is the "pick attack". Or, maybe a better way to describe it is when I'm using the FRFR cab, it sounds/feels like I'm using a compressor when compared to when I'm using my 2x12 guitar cab. I'm running both with my Matrix GT800FX.

This is just my own experience and thoughts. Trust me, I'm no expert. But it seems to me that folks who have complained or posted about "pick attack" seem to be FRFR users?
 
I've never had problems with dynamics.
I was always looking for amps where turning down the volume on the guitar would result in a cleaner sound.
Amps that didn't respond to this, I used as "metal amps".
But to me, it seems that with every update, the amps became a bit "gainier". So i reduced the gain but not completely to my satisfaction. On some amps, like the Friedman HBE or Cameron High, the drive is < 3.
What I mean is that it didn't get to the same point where, when turning down the volume, would get me to,the cleaner sound as easily.
Now I've found that reducing the global amp gain worked better.
It also reduced the noise level to the point where I didn't need a noise gate in most presets.
The amps were responding as before.
But I'm still experimenting.
But to say it isn't dynamic would go way to far IMHO.
On the other hand, I don't own a huge collection of tube amps ;)
I just feel the Axe-fx suits my needs. And perhaps this isn't the case for everyone.
On the point of deleted topics.
I'm not a huge fan of such politics. It's censorship pure and simple.
But I can understand it from the point of view of the developer since you can never convince everyone and whatever you may reply, I feel there are some critics that would never agree. So it's correct to say "This is not for you, thank you, time to move on" and delete the thread.
It would be different if someone would be critical but offer some kind of solution or alternative to a problem. But they can't since they don't posses the knowledge to build a device like the Axe-FX.
I remember using tube amps a long time ago. But I got fed up with changing amps all the time because I couldn't find one amp that could give me all the tones I was looking for. And I didn't want to keep an arsenal of amps just to have all those tones. I don't see anyone writing on an amp forum "Hey, your amp isn't that dynamic or doesn't give me the tone like this or that manufacturer does". No, they just buy another amp and go on th forums saying how wonderful their new amp is. until they get bored with it and buy the next one.
Not so with the Axe-fx, IMHO.
The tone and feel is oin there.
You just have to find it.
There are countless amp models in there, each with their own characteristics. Combine this with all the parameters you can play around with along with the IR's that are extremely important to get that specific sound and I can't imagine you ever getting bored with this box.
But it can be hard to find what you're looking for.
Hang in there.
 
I'm certainly no expert in "pick attack", but I wonder if this is ultimately a cab sims/FRFR "thing" compared to real guitar cabs? I'm a real guitar cab user, trying to adopt FRFR. I've got what I think is a very good FRFR cab (thanks Mick/XiTone!), and I'm getting closer to fully accepting FRFR because of it, but the one thing I'm noticing that is quite different between my FRFR cab and my real 2x12 guitar cab is the "pick attack". Or, maybe a better way to describe it is when I'm using the FRFR cab, it sounds/feels like I'm using a compressor when compared to when I'm using my 2x12 guitar cab. I'm running both with my Matrix GT800FX.

This is just my own experience and thoughts. Trust me, I'm no expert. But it seems to me that folks who have complained or posted about "pick attack" seem to be FRFR users?

I am an FRFR user, but when I turn cabs off and go into my ported single EVM-12L cab, I do not notice a difference in 'your' direction. Rather my cab feels more compressed.

Too many variables in this world.
 
I've never had problems with dynamics.
I was always looking for amps where turning down the volume on the guitar would result in a cleaner sound.
Amps that didn't respond to this, I used as "metal amps".
But to me, it seems that with every update, the amps became a bit "gainier". So i reduced the gain but not completely to my satisfaction. On some amps, like the Friedman HBE or Cameron High, the drive is < 3.
What I mean is that it didn't get to the same point where, when turning down the volume, would get me to,the cleaner sound as easily.
Now I've found that reducing the global amp gain worked better.
It also reduced the noise level to the point where I didn't need a noise gate in most presets.
The amps were responding as before.
But I'm still experimenting.
But to say it isn't dynamic would go way to far IMHO.
On the other hand, I don't own a huge collection of tube amps ;)
I just feel the Axe-fx suits my needs. And perhaps this isn't the case for everyone.
On the point of deleted topics.
I'm not a huge fan of such politics. It's censorship pure and simple.
But I can understand it from the point of view of the developer since you can never convince everyone and whatever you may reply, I feel there are some critics that would never agree. So it's correct to say "This is not for you, thank you, time to move on" and delete the thread.
It would be different if someone would be critical but offer some kind of solution or alternative to a problem. But they can't since they don't posses the knowledge to build a device like the Axe-FX.
I remember using tube amps a long time ago. But I got fed up with changing amps all the time because I couldn't find one amp that could give me all the tones I was looking for. And I didn't want to keep an arsenal of amps just to have all those tones. I don't see anyone writing on an amp forum "Hey, your amp isn't that dynamic or doesn't give me the tone like this or that manufacturer does". No, they just buy another amp and go on th forums saying how wonderful their new amp is. until they get bored with it and buy the next one.
Not so with the Axe-fx, IMHO.
The tone and feel is oin there.
You just have to find it.
There are countless amp models in there, each with their own characteristics. Combine this with all the parameters you can play around with along with the IR's that are extremely important to get that specific sound and I can't imagine you ever getting bored with this box.
But it can be hard to find what you're looking for.
Hang in there.

Two things: 1) I never had a 'problem' with dynamics. it's more like, with Pick Attack, I'm getting something I didn't know I was missing. 2) It is 'censorship' - and I, for one, would prefer NO censorship (i.e. I think we should also be free to talk about anything, including politics and religion in the Lounge (and those who are offended can either join a nice hearty debate or 'tune elsewhere'). But, at the end of the day, it's FAS's forum - paid for by them, maintained by them, so although I don't agree with the policy, I think it's perfectly fair for them to make that call, and to enforce it. Sucks for people like me who like to verbally tussle and have my assumptions challenged...
 
Just a few days later, I'm seeing the thread seems deleted? :-x
Is that part of the regular forum cleaning and will good info continue to "get lost"...?
Or was this a selective deletion of a weak point in the Axe?

The thread would not be deleted for criticism of any kind, however, if the attacks were personal and ongoing (i.e. the mods had to delete more posts than legitimate responses), then sure, it would go away. Frankly, we don't want to have to sit on top of these things all the time. No, not 'regular forum cleaning'. And 'a weak point in the Axe' is a PERSONAL OPINION, not a fact, and my guess is that the conflict inherent there would have prompted the deletion of the thread. That, and the inevitable 'kemper vs. Axe II' debate that routinely gets ugly on TGP.


A few days ago, I updated from 7 to 9.02 and after all the talk of improved dynamics, I was shocked to hear it seemed to have grown worse on the "dynamic maximum" side of things... It felt like I was playing a 1st gen modeler [on that aspect alone, like there was no room to play any harder].

Again, opinion. You've considered that this is some glaring fault that (from the thread you referenced) 'cannot believe others cannot hear how bad this is'.

I'm sure all the thousands of professionals and longtime amateur guitarists who DON'T hear this 'dynamic maximum' are re-thinking everything. I know this comes out snotty, but since you cannot let this issue go as an issue that you and very few others seem to have, I'm going to have to agree with Cliff that this is just not right for you. If Nikki-k moved on, perhaps consider then direction she/he took?

And a final note: This thread seems destined for deletion as well as we will have a problem with 'reasonable discussion'. We, as MODS, don't want that, so please can everyone play nicely?

Ron
 
Previously, Cliff commented that "EMG's compress like crazy."
I have since done the 18v mod to my EMG guitar

I don't know why people say that. I guess it's true, because the internet says so.

EMGs aren't some magical thing - they're standard high-impedance pickups with preamps built into the package. The preamp will only compress if the magnitude of the output signal approaches that of the voltage supply. For most installations, that's 9V, and it's pretty much impossible to do that with a standard guitar.

It's not terribly hard to do with a bass, which is why most factory active bass setups are 18V. I suppose something like a deeply downtuned guitar, or a 7- or 8-string, might be able to do it.

I've never been able to cause compression in an EMG-equipped six-string, and I have tried (and scoped the output). Likewise, I've tried 18V setups on guitars and found no differences.
 
As mentioned, go to global and switch to v7 modeling. If you hear a difference in dynamics, stay with v7 modeling.
I hear a difference too, but it's just the opposite of what you're hearing and feeling.
v9 modeling sounds more open, just the opposite of what you said. I mentioned this in my first post after installing v9 during beta release.

My guess is you are overlooking a parameter and your patches tuned for v7 are not tuned for v9.
Switch to v7 and be done with it. If it works for you, that's all that counts.
The great thing is you still have access to the new amps and features!
 
As mentioned, go to global and switch to v7 modeling. If you hear a difference in dynamics, stay with v7 modeling.
I hear a difference too, but it's just the opposite of what you're hearing and feeling.
v9 modeling sounds more open, just the opposite of what you said. I mentioned this in my first post after installing v9 during beta release.

My guess is you are overlooking a parameter and your patches tuned for v7 are not tuned for v9.
Switch to v7 and be done with it. If it works for you, that's all that counts.
The great thing is you still have access to the new amps and features!

I am so glad that FAS is now having the backward compatible modeling settings - that was one of my beefs before when upgrading FW.

But with that said, 9.02 sounds more open, warmer, smoother, creamier than even 9 beta, and Pick Attack really is a nice addition. Didn't know I was missing it, but now that I've got it, I wouldn't want to part with it!

Someone said that each iteration of FW has gotten 'gainer'. I didn't notice that too much, but I play mostly Fenders, not the high gain stuff. Were people experiencing this even with clean amps?
 
I too, think that v9 is far superior in the pick attack arena. In fact, V9 is better in pretty much every regard. Love it!
 
I'll be blunt-

Your issues you describe sound like shitty patches/presets are the problem and not the pick attack/dynamic settings in the Axe

and after spending last week auditioning 1500+ presets- The pick attack and dynamic attack sounds that sounded bad were a result of the preset and not in any way the Axe fx- the thing sounds better than ever
 
...but the one thing I'm noticing that is quite different between my FRFR cab and my real 2x12 guitar cab is the "pick attack". Or, maybe a better way to describe it is when I'm using the FRFR cab, it sounds/feels like I'm using a compressor when compared to when I'm using my 2x12 guitar cab. I'm running both with my Matrix GT800FX.

Yes, this is exactly what I find. I think it's related to the cab block though. I notice when turning cab sims on/off (into a guitar cab) that, in addition to the obvious freq filtering, the attack curve seems to change. Like you say, feels like inserting a compressor.
 
Back
Top Bottom