Firmware V2 vs. V3 A/B test... discouraged

grape

Experienced
** Update:
A combination of the following gets me closer to the 2.0 sound with 3.0 firmware:

Amp Tone Lo/Hi Cut : 0-20000 instead of the defaults (for AC30TB and 59 Bassguy at least)
Amp Basic Depth : 5.00 instead of 0 (for those amps that are affected by it)
Cab Proximity : 0 instead of the default 2.5 (I don't have a good explanation for this but it was important.
Graphic EQ : after an RW Cab set to increase low frequencies and decrease high to compensate for the changes made to the IRs.
Amp EQ : boost 125 and to a lesser extent 250 to instead of using post cab eq block. This seems to compensate well for the RW Cab's and saves adding a block.
Amp Basic Treb : 0 instead of 5 - this worked on one AC30TB preset
Amp Basic Drive : increase by ~1 - also worked on an AC30TB preset
Amp Speaker Hi : Hi settings default differently in 3.0. Changing these settings was critical for a few of my presets. It depends on amp but one of them had a Boutique 1.
**


I upgraded to V3 today but before doing so I performed a lengthy recording session my normal way by recording three tracks at the same time:

1 Dry track (just guitar going through a pre)
1 Wet track (just the output of the Axe)
1 Midi program change

I went through a bunch of Bank A presets followed by my custom presets.

Then I upgraded and performed the same recording using the same dry track and midi track but new wet track with 3.0.

Now I'm able to A/B the wet tracks. I wasn't comforted by what I heard. The first preset (bassman) in 2.0 had so much body. In 3.0 it has totally lost that full range full body sound. It doesn't really sound like it's just an eq change. It really sounds like the model has changed substantially. I checked a bunch of other presets and tended to prefer the 2.0 sound. I did this in a somewhat blind way so that I when I toggled (using my mouse) I wouldn't always know which was A and which was B. Before panicking, I worked with my presets which I'm more familiar with. I A/Bed an AC30 preset and without question 2.0 was better. 2.0 sounded more even and rich. 3.0 seems to be clearer (in a bad way), nasal, and missing a lot of mid content. I tried adjusting various settings to no avail. A few settings helped such as increasing the drive slightly and the XFormer Match but it still sounds one dimensional compared to 2.0.

I'm not sure I can attribute it to anything specific in 3.0. It could be the move to pentode vs. triode, general tweaking in the amp models, or maybe the cabinet ir changes. I'll work a bit more on it but I'll be honest, I'm discouraged.

Has anyone else A/B-ed in this way? Specifically have you noticed the richness difference between the two firmwares? What did you do to address it?

To eliminate preliminary questions:
No, I do not use global eq.
Yes cab and amp are turned on.
I monitored extensively in high quality head phones.
Yes, I uploaded the 3.0 bank A.
Yes, on my presets, I did the amp change to get the default parameters
Yes, I upgraded to 3. I see the new features in Axe-Edit and on the front panel.
I use spdif io between my sound card and axe (I don't have sync issues with this).
I did a parameter reset and updated the only global settings I needed to match 2.0 fw (input levels 1 and 2).
I am using the new Axe-Edit 1.0.239.
I don't want to post my dry or wet tracks.... however, encourage you to do an A/B test and post the results :0)
 
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Which cab sims did you use, the Red Wirez?

If so:
The Red Wirez have been remixed in fw 3. For a more balanced test / comparison, perform your test again using an user cab or a Fractal cab or an OwnHammer cab.

I don't share your opinion. IMO all amps sound better in fw 3.
 
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Interesting.
Have not done an A/B such as that but the difference between V2 and V3 FW is quite the opposite for me. Not doubting your perception, but The V3 Fender and Vox cleans have more body and definition to me.
The higher gains also are better overall IMO. Better string definition and better character of each amp.
Everyone has different set of expectations and tastes, I guess.............
 
Initial panic has subsided...

I went back and worked with some of my presets. I use Axe-Edit so maybe some of the issues I'm having wouldn't even apply to those using the front panel. So it turns out that changing the amp to something else and back in Axe-Edit sets:
Amp Tone Low Cut to 500.0
Amp Tone Hi Cut to 15000

Cab Proximity defaults to 2.5.

Well, changing the low and hi to full range and the proximity to 0 fixed the majority of the issues. The full body returned.

I tried the same on the 00 preset and that worked as well but I had to change the the depth from 0 to 5.00 and tweak the eq a bit. This is probably required for many of the other presets as well (but not the ac30 since I don't think it had any effect). I don't think those defaults are good at all... I mean I know these are my ears but I suspect others would share my opinion... in fact try those 4 settings (low, hi cut, depth, and proximity) with the defaults mentioned and compare it to the corrected settings just on v3 and tell me this is universally bad :0). Another way I'd describe it is that the good sound was like a beautiful organ and the bad sound was like guitarrig 1.0.

I'll keep comparing and hopefully dispel any concerns I have. I would still like to hear more from others about true A/B testing and which settings need to be adjusted if any to get the best sound from 3.0 from 2.0 presets.
 
Which cab sims did you use, the Red Wirez?

If so:
The Red Wirez have been remixed in fw 3. For a more balanced test / comparison, perform your test again using an user cab or a Fractal cab or an OwnHammer cab.

I don't share your opinion. IMO all amps sound better in fw 3.

Some of my presets are using RW's. Turned out to be amp and cab settings for the most part (see my last post).

PS did you do a direct comparison or do you just get that general feeling after updating?
 
Proximity defaults to 2.5 on the hardware.
If you want more low end, turn it up, not down.
 
Some of my presets are using RW's. Turned out to be amp and cab settings for the most part (see my last post).

PS did you do a direct comparison or do you just get that general feeling after updating?

General... Tone is more balanced, smoother, punchier. The best Axe-Fx tone so far. Clean and overdriven. And I don't tweak the settings much. Using OwnHammers.
 
Proximity defaults to 2.5 on the hardware.
If you want more low end, turn it up, not down.

Taking me for an idiot I see :0) I wasn't talking about the Bass control but the Tone Lo Cut and Tone Hi Cut. They narrow the range between 500 to 10000 by default. That totally killed the presets for me.
 
Taking me for an idiot I see :0) I wasn't talking about the Bass control but the Tone Lo Cut and Tone Hi Cut. They narrow the range between 500 to 10000 by default. That totally killed the presets for me.

No no, misunderstanding here. I was still talking about Proximity. You wrote that you turned it down to 0. That translates to a larger distance between mic and speaker which results in less bass. That's why I wrote (talking about Proximity): "If you want more low end, turn it up, not down". Sigh... ;-)

About Power amp Lo / High Cut: which Axe-Edit version do you use?
 
I'm waiting to hear the new IRs made with the capture's tool. I'm sure they will change the game in a good way. Have you asked to Adam Cook his IR?
 
No no, misunderstanding here. I was still talking about Proximity. You wrote that you turned it down to 0. That translates to a larger distance between mic and speaker which results in less bass. That's why I wrote (talking about Proximity): "If you want more low end, turn it up, not down". Sigh... ;-)

About Power amp Lo / High Cut: which Axe-Edit version do you use?

Yes, my misunderstanding. So I wonder if 0 is really the equivalent of fw 2.0. It sounded like it to me but who knows. 0 seemed the closest to me.

I use Axe-Edit 1.0.239.
 
Wow, have you ever thought about writing a book on how to make friends and influence people!? Seriously people are trying to help you out and you're replying to them as you are!

Anyway onto the problem, once you uploaded the presets you can rules out axe edit as a problem by switching presets from the front panel if you've not tried this already. Worth a shot maybe?

Also, I know you don't want to, but posting a before and after clip should help people help you.

I've found with 3 that you can (and I do) crank the bass more, I used to roll it off as it made patches too undefined. Worth raising it and seeing what happens.

Spence
 
So I wonder if 0 is really the equivalent of fw 2.0. It sounded like it to me but who knows. 0 seemed the closest to me.

On the contrary. I would expect Prox. at default (2.5) or more probably higher (= more bass) to be the equivalent of firmware 2.x but I haven't compared it directly. I keep it at default.
 
Closer proximity = more bass = higher parameter setting.

My settings end up between 2.75 and 4.25 depending on the amp. Also, turn all the low cut/high cut stuff OFF to learn what this new firmware does.

Grape, take your time to learn the new firmware. It is worth it.

If not, then use 2.xx and be happy.
 
I have had mixed results, mostly positive. I use the orange recto, which Cliff is redoing ... so that will change again anyway. But the cleans on any of my presets are way better IMO, just full and lively now. I used Scott's basic tweaking formulas and it works well. Some mesa amps, particularly the IIc models, just don't sound very good ... I have run the tweaking gambit ... and now switched to other amps. On a normal SLO the presence is cranked up to get a full cutting sound that is still smooth. On the SLO Axe II 3.0 model, I now have the presence almost off. Not sure why the models have moved away from the originals as far as settings, but the sound I ended up with rips. As somebody said, you can now add bass and depth back in, it makes the sound huge, wihout mud. Great stuff. But patience is needed. I spend a few hours on every one of my presets. The Trainwreck preset now sounds unbelievably good. Definition and grind ... gotta love it.
 
I stated in my original short review of the axe 2, that the RW cabs had way too much natural bass. After changing to version 3, that issue is gone...
 
Initial panic has subsided...

I use Axe-Edit so maybe some of the issues I'm having wouldn't even apply to those using the front panel. So it turns out that changing the amp to something else and back in Axe-Edit sets:
Amp Tone Low Cut to 500.0
Amp Tone Hi Cut to 15000
just to be sure...are you talking about Power Amp Lo and Hi Cut (Power section in the editor) ? are you using the latest editor version ? defaults on all models should be 10-20000 when set to "neutral" (which is also the default).
 
just to be sure...are you talking about Power Amp Lo and Hi Cut (Power section in the editor) ? are you using the latest editor version ? defaults on all models should be 10-20000 when set to "neutral" (which is also the default).

No, the tone section. Yes, I am using the latest editor. The Power section defaults to 10-20000 which is ok. See my other posts. The problems have mostly been resolved by changing 4 parameters.
 
Did you upload the updated presets and do a system parameter reset? I had a similar experience updating from 1.x to 2.x until <
 
I tOn a normal SLO the presence is cranked up to get a full cutting sound that is still smooth.

Sure?
The few SLO owners I know have both Presence and Treble turned down.
Those are un-modded SLOs.
 
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