FM3 for REAL Jazz

I think this is one of my favorite threads on this forum. Lots of great ideas put forth for getting a jazz sound that I need to try when I get home. :)
The thing is, the majority of the sound is not the amp. It’s the guitar and the hands. Great jazz playing has occurred with Teles and Les Pauls, various ES-type guitars, acoustics with sound hole pickups, nylon and gut string guitars, round-wound and flat-wound strings, 8”, 10”, 12” and 15” speakers, tubes, transistors and ICs, and they all worked because the person attached to the hands holding the guitar also turned the knobs and then played in a way that made the listener happy.

It’s not the amp model, it’s the person turning the knobs and vibrating the strings. The rest is just whatever was there.

Something that I learned early on with the Fractals was that some of the most beautiful cleans came from amps that are “known” for rock and roll, but the knobs were adjusted for a clean sound. Some of the most famous rock, blues, and arguably jazz, amps were designed and built by a guy, Howard Dumble, who was known for going for a high-fidelity sound. We can’t, and shouldn’t assume what an amp can do.
 
To OP:
First, I am NOT a jazz guitar player-more blues, R&B and Rock. But, one of the OLD fractal demo songs that really flipped the Fractal switch for me was this:

I have no idea what settings this guy used etc. I just liked the sound. And this is many years ago. Fractal has advanced considerably.
So the sound is there if you want it. wish I could help you find it but I cannot, sorry!
 
Last edited:
To OP:
First, I am NOT a jazz guitar player-more blues, R&B and Rock. But, one of the OLD fractal demo songs that really flipped the Fractal switch for me was this:

I have no idsea what settings this guy used etc. I just liked the sound. And this is many years ago. Fractal has advanced considerably.
So the sound is there if you want it. wish I could help you find it but I cannot, sorry!

thanks for contribution! It helps! well, that's not, say, the joe pass tone but it's a kinda modern but still jazz tone, definitively usable and beautiful in itself
 
The thing is, the majority of the sound is not the amp. It’s the guitar and the hands. Great jazz playing has occurred with Teles and Les Pauls, various ES-type guitars, acoustics with sound hole pickups, nylon and gut string guitars, round-wound and flat-wound strings, 8”, 10”, 12” and 15” speakers, tubes, transistors and ICs, and they all worked because the person attached to the hands holding the guitar also turned the knobs and then played in a way that made the listener happy.

It’s not the amp model, it’s the person turning the knobs and vibrating the strings. The rest is just whatever was there.

Something that I learned early on with the Fractals was that some of the most beautiful cleans came from amps that are “known” for rock and roll, but the knobs were adjusted for a clean sound. Some of the most famous rock, blues, and arguably jazz, amps were designed and built by a guy, Howard Dumble, who was known for going for a high-fidelity sound. We can’t, and shouldn’t assume what an amp can do.
This is 100% true in the world of real amps. In addition to going direct into the board a 100 watt Marshall plexi can produce one of my favorite clean tones. Although, perhaps, not in a way that would work for a jazz purist.

The problem in the modeler (I have not worked enough with my Fractal yet to single it out here) world is I can't quite replicate that level of clean and warmth with a modeled Marshall or other amp. There usually seems to be a subtle haze on the notes and really sharp transients will clip very lightly at even low volumes.
 
thanks for contribution! It helps! well, that's not, say, the joe pass tone but it's a kinda modern but still jazz tone, definitively usable and beautiful in itself
I actually messaged him a minute ago on FB. He doesn't know me but I asked about the amp\cab whatever he used for that song. Maybe he will answer. He is craig sharmat on FB
 
------------------------------

okay, I get some of the useful opinions and advices in this great discussion (I thanks everyone for their great contribution that made this interesting!), so I try to 'modulate' the topic:

- we (-> me ) understood that there are no specific amps directly usable for classic jazz, still since the Device is awesome and give us the chance to tweak like no others, we go to the next point

- This is a call for any jazz player or lover: post here your favorite chain/tips/tweaks (included IR) to get a good classical jazz tone in the vibe of Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, you name it; or if you want, post here your favorite jazz presets to share

Thank you to all for their precious contribution, really :)

Peace! Fabio
 
This is 100% true in the world of real amps. In addition to going direct into the board a 100 watt Marshall plexi can produce one of my favorite clean tones. Although, perhaps, not in a way that would work for a jazz purist.

The problem in the modeler (I have not worked enough with my Fractal yet to single it out here) world is I can't quite replicate that level of clean and warmth with a modeled Marshall or other amp. There usually seems to be a subtle haze on the notes and really sharp transients will clip very lightly at even low volumes.
that's a great useful contribution.
Would you mind to elaborate a bit more deeply?
I basically have the same feeling about using modeled rock amps.
I trust that if we can identify precisely the issue, some of the expert in this forum could help to fix it.
 
There usually seems to be a subtle haze on the notes and really sharp transients will clip very lightly at even low volumes.
If so, then that would be a bug and would be fixed. We should always identify anomalies, provide examples, and expect the models to perform like their analog counterparts. I’m sure Cliff does.
 
Well I got an answer from Craig Sharmat but I am guessing you won't like it........
Double Verb SF, Cab is 2X12 Double Verb R121, my Axe-FX is a II.

Nice of him to answer so quick.
Why not? I'd love to use Double verb to get a good tone, maybe he will be so nice to share settings or the preset :)
again thank you for your contribution :)
 
If so, then that would be a bug and would be fixed. We should always identify anomalies, provide examples, and expect the models to perform like their analog counterparts. I’m sure Cliff does.
I'll definitely spend some quality time with my Fractal over the next few gigs to verify this behavior.

Because I have encountered this with every other modeler or prosumer guitar device I have owned it's possible I may have missed a setting or tweak with the Fractal so I don't want to speak out of turn.

I got into the habit years ago of just bypassing the amp modeling and/or speaker whenever a truly clean, clear tone is needed.
 
Hundreds of rock amp models, you mean...
well, as I said in the post, it'd be enough the model of a Polytone or/and an Henriksen.
with literally hundreds of models, I really dont get why 1 or 2 model for an entire class of guitar player (the jazzers) is a too big effort to do, but still they add the 200th marshall model, who needs that?
This is the place where a few jazz musicians miss the point entirely and reveal an elitist mentality that holds them back. Every amp that isn’t a Polytone or Henriksen is not a “rock” amp! The thinking that anything not jazz is all rock is a fallacy that I don’t believe most jazz musicians hold to, but it’s not the first time I’ve heard it.

But to your post, and in a genuine desire to address it in a helpful way, I would suggest you make a simple request for the specific models of amps you want, explain why and give examples of players who have used them to good effect on specific recordings. This is a respectful request to a maker of the best modelers in existence. Fractal Audio is due that for their work and innovation in the field. Belittling their colossal contribution to the field with comments such as “1 or 2 model for an entire class of guitar player (the jazzers) is a too big effort to do, but still they add the 200th marshall model, who needs that?” is a very poor way of expressing your needs.

I hope they do put in something that meets your needs, if indeed nothing already there can, but in the end nothing is for everyone and some folks use other things. Neither is a bad thing if good music is made as a result.
 
that's a great useful contribution.
Would you mind to elaborate a bit more deeply?
I basically have the same feeling about using modeled rock amps.
I trust that if we can identify precisely the issue, some of the expert in this forum could help to fix it.
I can't vote to convict Fractal of this based on the fact that my methodology has been to bypass amp sims whenever I want a pure, clean tone.

I can throw the switch on all Line 6 products, Rolands, Sansamp and Kemper.

They all have an almost imperceptible halo of gauze in their cleans that probably doesn't bother you unless you have played without that haze.
 
Why not? I'd love to use Double verb to get a good tone, maybe he will be so nice to share settings or the preset :)
again thank you for your contribution :)
He is a nice guy, obviously. He knows the story now, so maybe message him yourself on FB. I just pasted his name into the FB search box. He came up first- This 2009-hope he remembers the settings-I wouldn't :) Worth a shot though!
 
Another option to try that I use with bass sometimes and dig is to not use the amp block at all but instead use the drive block set to the FET Preamp. Alternatively, you could also just go into the cab block alone and enable the preamp section and set it to one of the two FET options. Both blocks give you an EQ to work with and the FET circuit really isn't far off from the Polytone circuit.
 
I'm mainly a jazz guitarist and use the Fm3. There's lots of amp in the Fractal that can be used as jazz amps, you just have to find the right settings for you and the right IRs. I don't prefer the typical old school jazz sound, but like many jazz guitarists i like the fender sound.

So princetons, Twin reverbs and deluxe reverbs are all great jazz amps with the right settings in my opinion.

Actually many jazz recordings from the 50s used the tweed deluxe. The well known jazz record producer Rudy Van Gelder had a tweed deluxe in his studio that many guitarists like Grant Green and other used. The trick is to find the right settings.

Barney Kessel used a Gibson Scout if i'm not mistaken. That amp is also in the Fm3.

My prefered amp in the Fm3 for the moment is the Princeton AA964. Here's an video i recorded with that amp model:
 
Back
Top Bottom