FM3 for REAL Jazz

[∞Fractals]

What is REAL jazz?

I’ve seen Duke Ellington, Buddy Rich to Chuck Mangione and a lot of others … curious

If you want, add an amp request along w/ appropriate resources to the wish list… There is a process.

 

[Rex]

I’m not a jazz guy, so forgive the lack of knowledge. But all jazz players don’t sound the same. They surely are not using some unobtainable amp that only jazz guys know about. I’m certain many have used common amp types, for no other reason than that is what is available to them. For my benefit:

1 What amplifiers are hugely popular and used by many successful jazz artists that aren’t in the Fractal units?
2. Which amplifiers, specifically, have you used to get this elusive tone?

With hundreds of amp models at your disposal, I’m certain there are amps available that have been used on many jazz recordings. I’m very curious to know what is missing. Again, please forgive my ”outsider” questions, but even we non-jazzers are curious about the tone quest of others.

This. I see lots of rules about what we can’t suggest, but no examples of any “real” jazz amps.

 

[Mark Wein]

As someone who's primarily played jazz for over 20 years, I would push back a lot on the assertion that Fender amps are "not what an average nowadays jazz player would to look for." My amp of choice for years before going digital was a Deluxe Reverb and most of the guys in my area that aren't doing the Henrikson or Quilter thing are all using Deluxe Reverbs or some other small Fender.

IRs make a huge difference in tone. I own an early 80's Polytone Minibrute IV and I can get that sound easily in the FM3 using the Jazz Chorus with a Polytone IR. Dr. Bonkers has several Polytone IRs for sale on his website for super cheap. The 15" one is what I use and it sounds like my Polytone. All of those solid-state, super clean amps are all doing the same thing: ultra-linear response with no breakup. Because of this, yes, any clean amp will get you that sound. The biggest difference is the tone stack (which is switchable in the advanced settings in the amp block and the source of the Fender scoop) and especially the IR that you use with it. The thing that makes a Jazz Chorus sound like a Jazz Chorus are those two 12" speakers in the cabinet. The only difference between the Minibrute I and IIs and the IIIs and IVs are 12" vs 15" speakers (and reverb).

I'd recommend giving the Dr. Bonkers Polytone IRs a shot with the Jazz Chorus model. That should get you where you want for the classic, flatwound archtop sound.

Thanks for this. I've been doing the Twin with a Celestion A type for my jazz sound and not really happy with it. I'm going to give this a try this week.

 

[abendJazz]

This. I see lots of rules about what we can’t suggest, but no examples of any “real” jazz amps.

' What happens with jazz amps? What's the issue to model a simple, popular and vastly used amp as a Polytone or an Henriksen (that would be enough, btw)?'

I understand the post was long, but you didn't read it. peace.
fabio

 

[TheloniusJ]

I'll just pipe in to echo the sentiment that a few have all alluded to: I don't know what a consensus (modeling or not) is for REAL jazz tone or, really, what that even means. I'd generally consider any of the following REAL jazz players: Joe Pass, Pat Methany, Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Julian Lage, Jim Hall, Mike Stern. While some may have commonality, their approach to tone and amplifiers is all over the map. And as a few have mentioned, one approach I've seen many legit Jazz players use is to simply go directly into the board.

A few mentioned Fender type amps, which I have heard many, many very solid Jazz players use in a large variety of ways. As someone mentioned, Julian Lage is currently using one in a very transparent way (e.g. the tone stack all using very low values).

Having owned a Polytone Brute in the past, I'm 100% certain if I wanted to dial that sound in with my FM3, It would not be difficult at all. Even using a Jazz 120 would be a perfect approach by combining with a different cab IR as someone mentioned. Also, as the owner of a JC 40, I will not standby while this great amp is disparaged.

In any event, I think the simple answer to your question about why "REAL" jazz amps aren't modeled is that I think the players using things like a Henriksen don't want the amp to sound like anything. Compare this with rock players who really want the character of the amp as a major component to their tone and these amps color the sound quite a bit more, thus worth modeling.

Anyway, just my opinion on the matter.

 

[Mark Wein]

I thought the Roland Jazz Chorus was the king of jazz amps.

More the "King of Metallica Clean Sounds and 1980' High School band rooms that could afford a more expensive amp than a Peavey Bandit". I don't know anyone who plays jazz through a JC. The one person I know who loves the JC amps actually played in A Flock of Seagulls in the 90's and uses them for 80's pop.

 

[abendJazz]

I’m not a jazz guy, so forgive the lack of knowledge. But all jazz players don’t sound the same. They surely are not using some unobtainable amp that only jazz guys know about. I’m certain many have used common amp types, for no other reason than that is what is available to them. For my benefit:

1 What amplifiers are hugely popular and used by many successful jazz artists that aren’t in the Fractal units?
2. Which amplifiers, specifically, have you used to get this elusive tone?

With hundreds of amp models at your disposal, I’m certain there are amps available that have been used on many jazz recordings. I’m very curious to know what is missing. Again, please forgive my ”outsider” questions, but even we non-jazzers are curious about the tone quest of others.

Hundreds of rock amp models, you mean...
well, as I said in the post, it'd be enough the model of a Polytone or/and an Henriksen.
with literally hundreds of models, I really dont get why 1 or 2 model for an entire class of guitar player (the jazzers) is a too big effort to do, but still they add the 200th marshall model, who needs that?

 

[markwayne]

I thought the Roland Jazz Chorus was the king of jazz amps.

I think that might have been sarcasm.

However, just in case, having played these on a backline more than once (because the promoter thought just that) I can tell you that I would rather play through almost any Fender or even a bass amp rather than a JC120.

 

[abendJazz]

I'll just pipe in to echo the sentiment that a few have all alluded to: I don't know what a consensus (modeling or not) is for REAL jazz tone or, really, what that even means. I'd generally consider any of the following REAL jazz players: Joe Pass, Pat Methany, Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Julian Lage, Jim Hall, Mike Stern. While some may have commonality, their approach to tone and amplifiers is all over the map. And as a few have mentioned, one approach I've seen many legit Jazz players use is to simply go directly into the board.

A few mentioned Fender type amps, which I have heard many, many very solid Jazz players use in a large variety of ways. As someone mentioned, Julian Lage is currently using one in a very transparent way (e.g. the tone stack all using very low values).

Having owned a Polytone Brute in the past, I'm 100% certain if I wanted to dial that sound in with my FM3, It would not be difficult at all. Even using a Jazz 120 would be a perfect approach by combining with a different cab IR as someone mentioned. Also, as the owner of a JC 40, I will not standby while this great amp is disparaged.

In any event, I think the simple answer to your question about why "REAL" jazz amps aren't modeled is that I think the players using things like a Henriksen don't want the amp to sound like anything. Compare this with rock players who really want the character of the amp as a major component to their tone and these amps color the sound quite a bit more, thus worth modeling.

Anyway, just my opinion no the matter.

interesting contribution, still missing the point: why is it so difficult to model 1 or 2 amp different from rock, so jazz players must tweak/search/adapt/try stuff thought for other use and never get exactly what they want?
Honestly, will you keep a device that does not give you the answer you want without adapt/cheat/tweak/settle for lack of the proper option? I doubt about it

 

[chris]

interesting contribution, still missing the point: why is it so difficult to model 1 or 2 amp different from rock, so jazz players must tweak/search/adapt/try stuff thought for other use and never get exactly what they want?
Honestly, will you keep a device that does not give you the answer you want without adapt/cheat/tweak/settle for lack of the proper option? I doubt about it

this should have been the first post.

 

[Brucegregori]

I think depends on what type of jazz. This a broad thing sound. Bebop/50s Fender all day long. Fusion type things you can branch out. Pat Martino/ he actually used a RJC so it works. But I really like the PRS Archon for my straight ahead tone.

The other thing I use is the the tube pre with a cab - which kind of gets you into Henriksen territory.

 

[Mark Wein]

I think this is one of my favorite threads on this forum. Lots of great ideas put forth for getting a jazz sound that I need to try when I get home.

 

[TheloniusJ]

interesting contribution, still missing the point: why is it so difficult to model 1 or 2 amp different from rock, so jazz players must tweak/search/adapt/try stuff thought for other use and never get exactly what they want?
Honestly, will you keep a device that does not give you the answer you want without adapt/cheat/tweak/settle for lack of the proper option? I doubt about it

My apologies. I thought I did address that point: these aren't modeled because, by design the amps you are talking about are meant to not really sound like anything; they are intended to be very transparent and really just make guitar louder while offering a bit of EQ. Maybe I'm wrong here, but most hardcore jazzers I know are really just looking for an amp that doesn't color their tone much. This essentially brings up the question of what is being modeled?

 

[Rex]

' What happens with jazz amps? What's the issue to model a simple, popular and vastly used amp as a Polytone or an Henriksen (that would be enough, btw)?'

I understand the post was long, but you didn't read it. peace.
fabio

I read it, but missed it. Got hung up on the list of “Thou shalt nots.”

Peace also.

 

[Chromatizm]

I might be wrong, but I kinda see two ways this thread can go.
The first is that OP keeps bushing Fractal for not having these two amps that most of us never even heard about (and that comes from someone practicing Changes daily for many hours), and everyone will lose interest and abandon it. If OP is extremely lucky, Cliff will chime in and say "take this amp, change tonestack, use these IRs to get the Hendriksen sound".
The second is OP gets us a few clips of his target tone, gives details about his guitars, and at least a few people will try to help by experimenting with what we already have in FM3 to help him get there. Not a lot of chance that 6.01 release will actually have those two amps.

I even tried to Google what real jazz amps are, because I was very confused, very very confused by this post. Well, guess what - these two amps are mentioned in regard to big big names, but small small target audience and market share. Maybe that's why we still don't have them. It's all business after all. You can't make money on something that fewer people need than yet another Marshall.

 

[markwayne]

I am not a purist by any means and I will play whatever I'm getting paid to play.

I think the frustration that electric guitarists who play genres other than rock or pop may feel is the bias that most tools have for those genres.

It may just be a "tyranny of the majority" sort of issue.

 

[abendJazz]

As someone who's primarily played jazz for over 20 years, I would push back a lot on the assertion that Fender amps are "not what an average nowadays jazz player would to look for." My amp of choice for years before going digital was a Deluxe Reverb and most of the guys in my area that aren't doing the Henrikson or Quilter thing are all using Deluxe Reverbs or some other small Fender.

IRs make a huge difference in tone. I own an early 80's Polytone Minibrute IV and I can get that sound easily in the FM3 using the Jazz Chorus with a Polytone IR. Dr. Bonkers has several Polytone IRs for sale on his website for super cheap. The 15" one is what I use and it sounds like my Polytone. All of those solid-state, super clean amps are all doing the same thing: ultra-linear response with no breakup. Because of this, yes, any clean amp will get you that sound. The biggest difference is the tone stack (which is switchable in the advanced settings in the amp block and the source of the Fender scoop) and especially the IR that you use with it. The thing that makes a Jazz Chorus sound like a Jazz Chorus are those two 12" speakers in the cabinet. The only difference between the Minibrute I and IIs and the IIIs and IVs are 12" vs 15" speakers (and reverb).

I'd recommend giving the Dr. Bonkers Polytone IRs a shot with the Jazz Chorus model. That should get you where you want for the classic, flatwound archtop sound.

that's very interesting.
the tip is interesting and i'll try it;
btw, I already have those Dr Bonker IR, how to use them properly? I did billions try in my old unit Helix, and unfortunately I couldnt find those IR really useful, actually I barely recognize the Polytone tone vibe in them.

I disagree with your general statement: 'clean sound' is not jazz sound, 'clean' is not 'superclean' and that's it, since you are a jazz player I'm surprised to hear that;
if you ask me about distortion, I'm not into it and for me distortion is distortiion, you crank any amp, rock/metal/younameit is done, what you need more? but I'm afraid it doesnt work like that...

technically, you talk 'ultra- linear super clean' response, well that's FRFR/HI-FI/acoustic amp type, jazz guitar ampli sound is not that linear, it's focused on sweet Mids, especially low-mids, 'rounded' high and bass, lot of dynamics, no breakups, never, but very important is the attack of note, and there were Fender's fail for me: it must have the 'oomph' (like the one from old Gibson 157, that the amp must be able to reproduce) but stay warm and clean, the micro-breakup on the attack of valve amp is not suitable for classic jazz tone, it's VERY important to save intelligibility of complex harmony chords and chord chunks, still the feeling of 'separated' notes even in fast playing, absolutely important to 'swing' playing, otherwise you get just a mess of notes.

I apologize if I misuse or miss some terms, or my descriptions are not precise, I'm not native english and for some stuff i lack some vocabulary and grammar

 

[abendJazz]

I am not a purist by any means and I will play whatever I'm getting paid to play.

I think the frustration that electric guitarists who play genres other than rock or pop may feel is the bias that most tools have for those genres.

It may just be a "tyranny of the majority" sort of issue.

this! thanks for your contribution, it's perfect

 

[abendJazz]

My apologies. I thought I did address that point: these aren't modeled because, by design the amps you are talking about are meant to not really sound like anything; they are intended to be very transparent and really just make guitar louder while offering a bit of EQ. Maybe I'm wrong here, but most hardcore jazzers I know are really just looking for an amp that doesn't color their tone much. This essentially brings up the question of what is being modeled?

I tried to give a description of what I mean replying to Poparad, few posts before.
anyhow I appreciate your contribution, thank you

 

[markwayne]

that's very interesting.
the tip is interesting and i'll try it;
btw, I already have those Dr Bonker IR, how to use them properly? I did billions try in my old unit Helix, and unfortunately I couldnt find those IR really useful, actually I barely recognize the Polytone tone vibe in them.

I disagree with your general statement: 'clean sound' is not jazz sound, 'clean' is not 'superclean' and that's it, since you are a jazz player I'm surprised to hear that;
if you ask me about distortion, I'm not into it and for me distortion is distortiion, you crank any amp, rock/metal/younameit is done, what you need more? but I'm afraid it doesnt work like that...

technically, you talk 'ultra- linear super clean' response, well that's FRFR/HI-FI/acoustic amp type, jazz guitar ampli sound is not that linear, it's focused on sweet Mids, especially low-mids, 'rounded' high and bass, lot of dynamics, no breakups, never, but very important is the attack of note, and there were Fender's fail for me: it must have the 'oomph' (like the one from old Gibson 157, that the amp must be able to reproduce) but stay warm and clean, the micro-breakup on the attack of valve amp is not suitable for classic jazz tone, it's VERY important to save intelligibility of complex harmony chords and chord chunks, still the feeling of 'separated' notes even in fast playing, absolutely important to 'swing' playing, otherwise you get just a mess of notes.

I apologize if I misuse or miss some terms, or my descriptions are not precise, I'm not native english and for some stuff i lack some vocabulary and grammar

That's exactly what I loved about the early solid-state amps I mentioned earlier: they reproduced transients without any sag or clipping and they were warm but not wooly or woffy. An alnico 15" speaker doesn't hurt either.