Delay before Reverb? Or Reverb before Delay? What's your preference?

I've always been delay > reverb, the reason being that reverb is "sort of supposed" to emulate the actual sound you would hear in a real-world room, cave or whatever.

I went by the same logic, unless I'd set them in parallel on purpose. Cliff's explanation sounds right (LTI stuff) but is counter-intuitive indeed. But some truths are ;)

Different story is replicating an (old) combo amp with inbuilt spring reverb - obviously I place the 'verb right after the cab (or tremolo, if needed), so any post-amp delay would come after reverb.
 
Learned a lot here. Question, which models the real live world best? If you don't use a reverb unit in a live venue, then the guitar goes into a delay then into the amp and then the reverb that is picked up comes from reflections of the the room coming back to the mic, correct? I'm assuming only one mic on the amp (certainly you could have another one to pick up reflections in a different spot). But in a simple case the mic is going to pick pick up the main signal with delay first, no? And the reverb "second" so to speak, but not perfectly? So series seems to be more "real world." I have no idea, just wondering which model the real world more - series or parallel?
 
Learned a lot here. Question, which models the real live world best? If you don't use a reverb unit in a live venue, then the guitar goes into a delay then into the amp and then the reverb that is picked up comes from reflections of the the room coming back to the mic, correct? I'm assuming only one mic on the amp (certainly you could have another one to pick up reflections in a different spot). But in a simple case the mic is going to pick pick up the main signal with delay first, no? And the reverb "second" so to speak, but not perfectly? So series seems to be more "real world." I have no idea, just wondering which model the real world more - series or parallel?
that's correct. in the real world the room ambience would pick up the amp with the delay last and each delay trail would produce its own room reverberation.
 
I run stereo and I run parallel. Cleaner that way. I run delay above diagonally, reverb below diagonally: right after amp.

Then I run multi delay straight out of amp and have that on bypass and use and end of songs to have sound trail out or to thicken the end of a verse or chorus.

Works well!
 
I have the axe fx and the reverb is last. I also have a tube amp setup as well. I've been setting up my pedal board and I find I like the delay last. The delay is more pronounced at the end. With reverb last the delay seems to get more absorbed in to the reverb I'm leaving the delay last for now. Hope that helps Steven
 
Man I love when you go through 3 pages of a thread and you come out the other side having learned something. While I won't say I understand Cliffs math, (math isn't my thing) all of the other explainaions given by all guys makes perfect sense. I love this forum.
 
I prefer running them parallel. If limited to series routing only I prefer reverb last.
 
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Hmm well if you stack reverb and volume and delay and multi delay at the end of the path just before output block
that seems to sound best thats how I learned but I also like tape mono before the amp and the ep3 before amp
I read you can place chorus after the amp block but before the cabs but Ive been running it post cab block same with flanger
then stacking reverb volume delay and multi delay at end of the path stacked on top of one another right before the output block
dead last..

But im free now.

lawdy lawdy im free naw.
 
I have an easier time getting a preset to sound right with series routing, either effect order, in series works for me. It could be that I am not familiar with the best methods for setting up parallel flows. With having the balance set in the middle and effect block mixes high, and stacking parallel rows ( reverb, dry, delay, or reverb, delay), I am not sure why but my presets tend to sound confused, and sometimes a little brittle and harsh. And I try and tame them but get the feeling there is a simple mistake I am making. I guess the biggest mistake is expecting the loud shrill presets I download to work with my Fred guitar pickup. My lawdy, specially the leggy.
 
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I pretty much only use delay. I have a one patch with reverb, and it's part of making an "ol' time-y" radio feel.

However, my two cents... When I was a tube, and analog guy, it always frustrated me that my effects were locked in a certain order, and everything I did had to revolve around that order. With the Axe-FX, I can throw down any order I want with the switch of a patch, so I do. I put things in the wrong order all the time, just because I can, and to see what might happen. It doesn't always sound great, but when it does, I usually save it for later. I love this box.


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Mind officially blown!

So let me see if I understand the concept here…if I run a cab before time effects (delay, reverb) or after it in series will not make any difference in the resultant sound. Also running delay into reverb or reverb into delay in series also doesn’t make a difference in the sound. Is this correct? This goes against everything I have ever experienced in the studio.
 
Mind officially blown!

So let me see if I understand the concept here…if I run a cab before time effects (delay, reverb) or after it in series will not make any difference in the resultant sound. Also running delay into reverb or reverb into delay in series also doesn’t make a difference in the sound. Is this correct? This goes against everything I have ever experienced in the studio.
If either of them is doing something nonlinear (e.g., tape saturation on a real or modeled delay, overdriving either, etc.), then the order matters. As far as just the delay effect or the reverb effect itself, no, it doesn't really matter.

If you want to prove it to yourself, use the looper (before delay/reverb), record both versions, and use this: https://webabx.aykevl.nl/

I don't use reverb with the fractal except for a bit of "Room" in my cab block (afaik, this is just the early reflections/diffusion) because I've never liked much of a reverb sound on my guitar tones (yeah, heresy...I know). When I do, I tend to have them in parallel. But, again, I don't really do it with my FM3. It's not worth the DSP to run reverb for how little I use it.

Back when I was mixing, I'd keep a few delays on sends (not necessarily to use all of them, but to decide between them), effect-y reverbs (plate, spring, etc.) on sends, and often a very light reverb on the master.
 
Also running delay into reverb or reverb into delay in series also doesn’t make a difference in the sound. Is this correct? This goes against everything I have ever experienced in the studio.
I would not even think of putting a reverb before a delay -- that's just weird to me. I'm sure I saw it first in Fractal presets, almost seemingly becoming a trend to put reverb first. Or who knows, maybe I also saw it in the GSP-2101 or G-Force.

If it doesn't make a difference, something is wrong with the whole system, IMO — or at least, I will never understand why it's not different (I do understand the linear argument for some other use cases).

Anyway, in a Fractal it indeed does not sound weird. Maybe it depends on the levels and types of reverb... That it's the same would be either hard to believe for me, or just plain wrong LOL

Rereading the whole thread, I find it weird that people find Cliff's explanation cool. Nothing personal, but doesn't the way the code work rob us of a creative decision?
AFAIK, a reverb is a series of many delays. So how should a 3-tap delay going into a 50-tap (wild guess for reverb) be the same as doing it the other way around? Hard to believe this would be the same with analog devices, and thus equally hard to find it cool how it currently works...

OTOH, no biggie, as I'm more in the parallel camp anyway.
 
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I would not even think of putting a reverb before a delay -- that's just weird to me. I'm sure I saw it first in Fractal presets, almost seemingly becoming a trend to put reverb first. Or who knows, maybe I also saw it in the GSP-2101 or G-Force.

If it doesn't make a difference, something is wrong with the whole system, IMO — or at least, I will never understand why it's not different (I do understand the linear argument for some other use cases).

Anyway, in a Fractal it indeed does not sound weird. Maybe it depends on the levels and types of reverb... That it's the same would be either hard to believe for me, or just plain wrong LOL

Rereading the whole thread, I find it weird that people find Cliff's explanation cool. Nothing personal, but doesn't the way the code work rob us of a creative decision?
AFAIK, a reverb is a series of many delays. So how should a 3-tap delay going into a 50-tap (wild guess for reverb) be the same as doing it the other way around? Hard to believe this would be the same with analog devices, and thus equally hard to find it cool how it currently works...

OTOH, no biggie, as I'm more in the parallel camp anyway.
It isn't about Fractal code, it is about the way sound works.

It's math.

Do you find it weird that 5 x 1 x 9 == 45 and 9 x 5 x 1 == 45?

What Cliff said is that for effects that are LTI the sound is commutative. Same thing as the math above.

To take your example, 3 x 50 == 50 x 3. Simple ;)
 
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