Is it me or are others in the same boat?

your never going to get a FRFR to sound like a guitar cab. When you mic the guitar cab, your audience hears the same FRFR sound you hear anyway. The guitar cab is strictly for you and monitoring. If it matters to you, do what you like best. For me, I can dig whatever I hear out of a wedge and go with that. The mission is for the audience to like everything. As long as what I hear is somewhat acceptable, Im good. It doesn’t have to be “the best” solution.
I think this is my problem and you are right. I just wish I could dial in a tone that is somewhat acceptable. Love the Fractal solution for what it does. I have 66% under my belt. This last 33% to get it to sound good with IR's and FRFRs has defeated me to this point and I am a Fractal guy from the inception. Being an engineer and not getting things to work out is frustrating. I won't stop though. Thank you all for the replies.

Robert
 
I think this is my problem and you are right. I just wish I could dial in a tone that is somewhat acceptable. Love the Fractal solution for what it does. I have 66% under my belt. This last 33% to get it to sound good with IR's and FRFRs has defeated me to this point and I am a Fractal guy from the inception. Being an engineer and not getting things to work out is frustrating. I won't stop though. Thank you all for the replies.

Robert
Have you tried dialing things in at gig volume?
 
You might try using the new option of turning on the plate suppressor diodes to eliminate some fizz, and cutting the low cab frequency much higher than you'd expect with your FRFR speakers. Plus you've got the speaker "thump," "drive," and "compliance" control to experiment with.
Thank you. I never knew about the plate suppressor diode on/off. Used in just now and with my real cabinet it really added some life into the sound.
 
What confuses me is why does a traditional guitar cabinet sound good at whisper volumes on a patch and then when turned up to band volume it sounds even better with nothing but the overall volume changed? One would think the FRFR/IR solution would react the same way.
If you think about it you will realize this makes perfect sense. A guitar cab/speaker doesn't reproduce most of the highs and lows that get louder with the FM effect. A FRFR that is tuned to a lower volume will not sound right when turned up because the highs and lows get louder proportionally than the mids. A guitar cab/speaker does not do this because it is only reproducing the mids.
 
I've only been with Fractal since the waitlist days of the Axe II, but I'm extremely happy with my tone through my CLR's. My first FRFR was a RCF which was a compromise in tone, so I sold it and moved on to the CLR and haven't felt a need to move on from there.
I much prefer the tone when the CLR is pole mounted just above ear height. You mention that you are low and high cutting...what settings are you using? Some IR's sound great at low volume, but (for me) sounded too shrill, etc. at louder volumes even when dialing them in at 90dB. As was mentioned earlier, find a different IR.
 
In my experience, quiet amp settings absolutely do not work at high/gig volumes.

I went from a twin on jcm800 halfstack to an axe and headphones. Didnt miss anything. Got all the sounds I wanted.

Step 1. Use one IR.

Step 2. Dial in a tone you think is decent. Then dont touch it. Use only that preset for say a week or two.
 
think of dialing in tones at low volume like painting a colorful picture in dim light.

with dim light, you can't really see the actual vibrance of the colors, you're just guessing what might look good in normal light. then you turn on the lights and all the colors are way too bright or dark.

at low volumes, any audio sounds different vs louder volumes. to create the best tones for loud playing, create the tones while playing loudly. if you can't turn up where you create tones, you'll have to do your best guess, go to the gig and either adjust there, or take notes and adjust it later.

if it's too bright at the gig, go home, and make it less bright. then listen to how it sounds at home, and know that's what sounds good loud.
 
think of dialing in tones at low volume like painting a colorful picture in dim light.

with dim light, you can't really see the actual vibrance of the colors, you're just guessing what might look good in normal light. then you turn on the lights and all the colors are way too bright or dark.

at low volumes, any audio sounds different vs louder volumes. to create the best tones for loud playing, create the tones while playing loudly. if you can't turn up where you create tones, you'll have to do your best guess, go to the gig and either adjust there, or take notes and adjust it later.

if it's too bright at the gig, go home, and make it less bright. then listen to how it sounds at home, and know that's what sounds good loud.
This is all too true.
 
In my experience, quiet amp settings absolutely do not work at high/gig volumes.

I went from a twin on jcm800 halfstack to an axe and headphones. Didnt miss anything. Got all the sounds I wanted.

Step 1. Use one IR.

Step 2. Dial in a tone you think is decent. Then dont touch it. Use only that preset for say a week or two.
What I get on headphones translate fairly acceptable to me. Just keep the peppery stuff on the performance tab for final tweaks if needed. That’s what it’s there for.
 
A lot of people use need to use the Axe-FX in a traditional band setting where they need an amp in the room or on stage.
And that's totally fine, I used the AX8 with an amp for a few months. Many ways to use it, just offering my experience going from amps to modeling and how I have been able to come to grips with the differences.
 
While I totally believe “the right match for Mr. Frog is Mrs. Frog” (and all of us Frogs have different ears/needs) I wouldn’t be able to recommend a line-array module (even a killer one like a MSL Leopard) for this purpose. There are other “point source” speakers designed to be used as FRFR, whereas a Leopard is designed to be used as part of an array of multiple modules stacked/hung vertically.

All that said — I totally agree that patches tuned via headphones seldom translate well to stage/performance volume levels.
 
IR’s are the captured sound of a mic and speaker from a certain postion/distance relative to each other

what that IR is, is what your FRFR is essentially “playing”, of course it’s not going to sound just like a guitar cabinet on it’s own.

Especially if you’re playing an IR of a 4x12 V30 sm57 mic’d combo through a 1x12 FRFR speaker( no speaker in existence as far as I know is trully flat which will add it’s own coloration to the sound)

Physics won’t let you move the same amount of air/sound that a 4x12 can with a 1x12

It’s never going to feel and sound exactly like a 4x12 cabinet, even if you use a “flat” mic you’re still capturing a cabinet from one point in space
 
Have you ever been fully satisfied with the sound of your guitar amp mic’d and sent through a monitor to you? I’ve seen guitar players do this with real amps in an isolation box or another room so they can turn it up louder, and it’s never as glorious. There is not a way to convert the mic’d sound back into the original. There are, however, mics or combinations of mics that will get you closer than others. For example, the famous SM57 is used in many IRs, but it colors the sound A LOT (was never a fan of those personally).

With the Axe FX, I think it is good to shift to a mindset of dialing in the mic’d signal getting sent to the house, rather than just being in your own little world with your amp. As a sound man, I’ve had the chance to stand on stage and hear the glory where the guitar player is standing, then walk out and hear that sound marred by running through an SM57 and a house PA that cost less than the amp. Because I have experience as a sound tech, I’ve always wanted the sound in the house to be as good as what I have for myself.


All that said, I haven’t tried running FRFR, but I have had good results in the PA with Legacy Cab #54. The mids are strong, solid, and punchy in a way that feels right to me.
 
I have no problem with clean tones, it is with high gain tones where I struggle. Mainly play 80s/90s type rock stuff.
It sounds like you have a lot of experience with guitar tones but one mistake I made initially was creating presets that were too bright. Sounded great at home at lower volumes but way too thin and shrill through a PA (Good ol' Fletcher Munson). I ended up taking an amp and matching cab, (AC-20 EF86 Treble with AC-20 DLX MIX) leaving everything at default values to 'retrain' my ears to what the amp was designed to sound like.

When it comes to IRs, I've stopped looking too much at picking the 'correct' one and use what sounds the best to me. Greenbacks are supposed to be great with Marshalls and Matchless amps, but I have yet to find a GB IR that sounds good to me. Others will use nothing else.

Just for kicks, try this WGS Retro 30 IR. Sounds good on its own or mixed with another IR or two, it's one of the more neutral sounding IRs with different amp models.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/wgs-retro-30-free-ir.128249/

One parameter that I've found invaluable for adding fullness or 'girth' to an IR is the Proximity in the Cab block. I set the frequency pretty low, @ 55-65 Hz, and Level @ 5.00. Adds body to the tone even if you have a low cut @ 100-120 Hz.
 
When it comes to IRs, I've stopped looking too much at picking the 'correct' one and use what sounds the best to me. Greenbacks are supposed to be great with Marshalls and Matchless amps, but I have yet to find a GB IR that sounds good to me. Others will use nothing else.
Did you try the York Audio MTCH Pack?

It's a mix of G12H30 and G12M25 speakers... My current single IR is a blend of 2 mix IRs from that pack (one of each speaker).
 
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