First Gig FM3 into Katana WOW

Jamme1961

Inspired
I just play small little bars - no micing or FOH stuff - have always used tube heads and combos and pedals. Always fighting the volume and struggling to get comfortable at the gig with my sound. Last night stayed on the deluxe reverb all night - the FM3 was able to go from super clean to classic rock (KISS Foghat Zepplin Cure Beatles CCR ) so good - The Katana sounds fantastic and with the volume control on there went 50 watts (master on 11 o'clock) and then switched to 100 as the night got going - just so easy. My effects were so good and made it so easy to play. All band members were blown away. This shits real LOL - Thanks to the creator of this stuff Thank you
So IMHO FM3 into Katana 1x12 power amp in, is a great budget option. Ive been gigging for 30 years with all types of vintage and modern gear, costing thousands of dollars - I cant imagine a FRFR giving me better results but I am curious - never can leave it alone LOL Shout out to all you guys helping me out with my questions thanks :)
 
Great to hear! I've used a Katana for a power amp before too. Loud and light. With a cab you like it sounds great not budget at all.

FRFR is more trouble than its worth live IMHO, unless you wanted a quiet stage / were doing in ears.

Play with FRFR at home or recording. Its a useful and fun for those, I'm not a hater.

One problem with FRFR live is the temptation to change IR between songs, which can throw off your volume levels and mess with any external EQ the sound guy does, no different than if you randomly changed real world cabs in a set. The pros that get big sloundchceks and have dedicated sound folks can get away with that, humble me at the club, its just too much to ask.

If you aren't mic'd at all and do a good job level matching, it certainly can work, but its work to do it well.
 
For me less is so much more - once I'm at the gig I have to set up everything including PA PIA. I was so happy to plug in to the FM3 and go. I had my favorite fender, Marshall settings ready to go but never got off of the Deluxe Reverb. Used the drives in the FM3 plus a Boss BD2 and Digitech CM3 (TS style pedal) The rotary sound in the FM3 sounded fantastic along with delay and reverb, phase - just never used a Rotary before - I kicked it in on one of the songs (don't remember) and immediately my drummer looks over- gives me the oh yea nod - it was a good night - this was an out door gig too. I think the open back on the Katana helps disperse the sound better too IMHO
 
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Have heard this often about Katana as a descent FR solution - makes me wonder about pricing of alternatives, ie PS170 amp here is $599Cdn vs a Katana 50 amp at $379. Different products, but still 🤔
 
One problem with FRFR live is the temptation to change IR between songs, which can throw off your volume levels and mess with any external EQ the sound guy does, no different than if you randomly changed real world cabs in a set. The pros that get big sloundchceks and have dedicated sound folks can get away with that, humble me at the club, its just too much to ask.
The FRFR can’t be blamed for the guitarist’s bad decisions on stage. The same problems can occur using a Katana, or solid-state or tube amp into a regular guitar cabinet, if the player hops between amp models, or uses extremes in their EQ, or even using a tube combo with pedals that have sounds that go from screeching highs to booming muddy lows. Don’t blame the equipment for the bad choices of the person using it.

An FRFR is an incredible tool that allows one cabinet to output the sound of the modeler, something the Katana doesn’t do as well since it’s designed to compliment that particular amp and cabinet with their attending limitations. It’s understandable that people gravitate to cheaper solutions just to get started, but there’s no reason to try to tear down the much more widely accepted solutions that were designed for the modeler.
 
I am running the Katana with the cabs off. I have had the kemper power head and stage and recently Hx stomp- all good but the fractal is better imho
 
Have heard this often about Katana as a descent FR solution - makes me wonder about pricing of alternatives, ie PS170 amp here is $599Cdn vs a Katana 50 amp at $379. Different products, but still 🤔
Define “decent”.

It makes no sense to me to buy a cheap modeling combo amp, with a cheap speaker and cabinet, then buy a much better modeler and plug it into the power amp return running the modeler through that same cheap speaker and cabinet and ignoring that the main reason to have the amp (the Katana’s modeler, its “preamp”) is not being used.

A better solution would be to find a small powered PA cabinet, maybe with a 10”, FRFR or not, that costs about the same amount. The money spent will go directly to the parts that are necessary and nothing is wasted, and the parts are designed to work together to do what the modeler does, create sound accurately.

https://www.sweetwater.com/c134--10...6eyJQcmljZSBSYW5nZSI6WyIkMzAwIHRvICQ1MDAiXX19
 
My live rig is FM3 into a CLR...I also have a Katana 100 which I have used at rehearsals with the FM3.
A high quality FRFR (CLR) sounds better than a Katana. It's that simple.
The Katana sounds OK, but everytime I use it I'm reminded of how much better the CLR sounds.20220709_212017.jpg
 
Define “decent”.

It makes no sense to me to buy a cheap modeling combo amp, with a cheap speaker and cabinet, then buy a much better modeler and plug it into the power amp return running the modeler through that same cheap speaker and cabinet and ignoring that the main reason to have the amp (the Katana’s modeler, its “preamp”) is not being used.

A better solution would be to find a small powered PA cabinet, maybe with a 10”, FRFR or not, that costs about the same amount. The money spent will go directly to the parts that are necessary and nothing is wasted, and the parts are designed to work together to do what the modeler does, create sound accurately.

https://www.sweetwater.com/c134--10...6eyJQcmljZSBSYW5nZSI6WyIkMzAwIHRvICQ1MDAiXX19

Geesh, dude. Really? If people are happy with their results in their world and
circumstances then what is your beef?
 
Geesh, dude. Really? If people are happy with their results in their world and
circumstances then what is your beef?
People are free to use whatever they want. RECOMMENDING that solution is fine too when combined with stating the pluses and minuses, but running down the other technologies that are established and recognized solutions, for reasons that don't apply, makes no sense. THAT is what I was addressing.
 
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Define “decent”.

It makes no sense to me to buy a cheap modeling combo amp, with a cheap speaker and cabinet, then buy a much better modeler and plug it into the power amp return running the modeler through that same cheap speaker and cabinet and ignoring that the main reason to have the amp (the Katana’s modeler, its “preamp”) is not being used.

A better solution would be to find a small powered PA cabinet, maybe with a 10”, FRFR or not, that costs about the same amount. The money spent will go directly to the parts that are necessary and nothing is wasted, and the parts are designed to work together to do what the modeler does, create sound accurately.

https://www.sweetwater.com/c134--10...6eyJQcmljZSBSYW5nZSI6WyIkMzAwIHRvICQ1MDAiXX19
totally agree - and I've strived to make my setup gradually better through incremental changes toward proven logical solutions and not going on the cheap - where I was headed with my comment (poorly articulated) is that I hear so many comments on how great Katana is as an FR solution, it gets me real curious to know where the differences are specifically compared to say FR via a Matrix into 2 F12-X200s in Celestion spec enclosures. Though logically, I know the latter should be much better with a quality modeller for the reasons you point to, there seems to be very little in concrete well explained data out there (I can find anyway) to explain the differences in a concrete way - but no shortage of "wow, the Katana, Headrush ... sounds so awesome" or, "no doubt this or that premium FR solution will sound better" comments. I really think the companies providing those more expensive FR targetted solutions (whether amp and/or speaker...) could do a much better job explaining why / how / by how much, and in which scenarios their solutions are better for FR (more Graphs needed - like Fractal does!).

It's kinda like the F12-X200 Celestion spec cab debate - no shortage of "throw it any old cab and it'll work as FR" type comments, which makes limited sense to me, but, I start buying into it in the absence of some hard core test data showing how / why the spec cab will work where non-spec cabs will not, and any ground in between.

Interesting stuff.
 
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A high quality FRFR (CLR) sounds better than a Katana. It's that simple.
The Katana sounds OK, but everytime I use it I'm reminded of how much better the CLR sounds.View attachment 109261
k, but, to my point above - how exactly is it better?, by how much? sounds better in the context of what types of tones? (all?, some? one?) My guess is that it's better as follows in order of what to me is most to least importance, but few seem to have the time to elaborate (which is why I think the FR providers should be doing that more, and in detail, to differentiate their stuff so that folks are not wondering if their money will be well spent, and/or the true detailed "costs" of going cheaper):
  • the CLR translates across diverse amp/cab tones better: Mesa high gain, Vox, Fender, and Marshall as sound as they should clean to distorted.
  • the CLR translates across divers guitar tones better: Les Paul, Strat, Tele, Hollowbody, Accoustic ... tonality all come through clearly.
  • the CLR does not introduce hi-end harshness at volume that can't be dialled out.
  • the CLR's dispersion is consistent across a wide axis up/down or left/right.
  • build quality. reliability...
 
totally agree - and I've strived to make my setup gradually better through incremental changes toward proven logical solutions and not going on the cheap - where I was headed with my comment (poorly articulated) is that I hear so many comments on how great Katana is as an FR solution, it gets me real curious to know where the differences are specifically compared to say FR via a Matrix into 2 F12-X200s in Celestion spec enclosures. Though logically, I know the latter should be much better with a quality modeller for the reasons you point to, however, there's very little in concrete well explained data out there (I can find anyway) to explain the differences in a concrete way - but no shortage of "wow, the Katana, Headrush ... sounds so awesome". I really think the companies providing those more expensive FR targetted solutions (whether amp and/or speaker...) could do a much better job explaining why / how / by how much, and in which scenarios (more Graphs needed - like Fractal does!).

It's kinda like the F12-X200 Celestion spec cab debate - no shortage of "throw it any old cab and it'll work as FR" comments, which makes limited sense to me, but, I start buying into it in the absence of some hard core test data showing how the spec cab will work where non-spec cabs will not, and any ground in between.

Interesting stuff.
Some background: I started with running a small FOH system for a church choir at about the same time I picked up an acoustic guitar, then moved up to running FOH for various bands, sometimes in a dedicated space, sometimes in wherever they were booked inside and out, then to helping run sound at small festivals, while selling high-end audio systems, then selling custom mixing boards, all while also playing electric guitar in bands, and occasionally playing in studios, so I kinda got hit from all sides by the technologies. Plus I'm a nerd about technical stuff in general, though mostly now I prefer to make a loud noise with my guitars, amps, or modelers.

The higher-end equipment manufacturers are targeting a different audience than the low-end. The typical customer for the higher-end gear already understands how the cabinet's attributes, i.e. design, construction, size, shape, and materials, need to work with a certain sized speaker or speakers to help the combination of the cabinet and speaker sound their best, so they leave out a lot of that information because it'd be redundant to repeat what is in the acoustic and physics books.

Yeah, I see that it's harder to find the information from the manufacturer, but we can get it from various recording and FOH-oriented sites, or we can tug on the shirt of our FOH or recording engineer friends and buy them a beer and ask them questions about it. A dear friend of mine has had a long career designing and building studios and worked in very well-known studios helping record big artists so I'll ping him with questions occasionally, he'll do a brain dump and point me at various articles. I think it's fascinating stuff but some people are intimidated by the technical side of it and "just want to plaaaaaay!"

The low-end manufacturers rely on their PR machine to spew glittering words and charts that really don't tell us anything because they don't want that information out there, basically… in my opinion. And, they throw money at magazines and stores to sell their gear, and they target those who might want to know but don't necessarily want to spend money, or time, to learn why there are these layers to the equipment and technologies. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play only, but having some knowledge about how it works helps immeasurably when picking gear.

I imagine everyone has spent too much time buying the next great thing that was advertised as being the perfect solution to problem X, found out it didn't help, ended up buying something else, and probably sold the previous thing. Whoever personifies wisdom in our lives would probably want us to learn that buying and trying then selling things doesn't help us unless we've learned how to use it in depth before deciding it won't do what we want and trying something else, but that'd run counter to the PR machine and the desires of the manufacturers of the gizmos to separate us from our money.

Hopefully, we learn that the cycle is both an endless loop and a dead end. You said:

I've strived to make my setup gradually better through incremental changes toward proven logical solutions and not going on the cheap…

Dude, I'm on my feet clapping.
 
k, but, to my point above - how exactly is it better?, by how much? sounds better in the context of what types of tones? (all?, some? one?) My guess is that it's better as follows in order of what to me is most to least importance, but few seem to have the time to elaborate (which is why I think the FR providers should be doing that more, and in detail, to differentiate their stuff so that folks are not wondering if their money will be well spent, and/or the true detailed "costs" of going cheaper):
  • the CLR translates across diverse amp/cab tones better: Mesa high gain, Vox, Fender, and Marshall as sound as they should clean to distorted.
  • the CLR translates across divers guitar tones better: Les Paul, Strat, Tele, Hollowbody, Accoustic ... tonality all come through clearly.
  • the CLR does not introduce hi-end harshness at volume that can't be dialled out.
  • the CLR's dispersion is consistent across a wide axis up/down or left/right.
  • build quality. reliability...
I think Yek did a remarkable job curating "Connections and levels" in the Wiki, especially the "Setups" section which is about using FRFR or regular cabinets.

It's a big document, and needs to be read slowly and repeatedly by me, because it contains a lot of wisdom and knowledge. Cliff (AKA @FractalAudio) really understands this stuff, not just the electronics, but also the physical and acoustical sides of it. Also, the Tech Notes contain great information. A lot of it whooshes past my brain, but, again, repeated reading slowly reveals what Cliff was writing about.
 
Some background: I started with running a small FOH system for a church choir at about the same time I picked up an acoustic guitar, then moved up to running FOH for various bands, sometimes in a dedicated space, sometimes in wherever they were booked inside and out, then to helping run sound at small festivals, while selling high-end audio systems, then selling custom mixing boards, all while also playing electric guitar in bands, and occasionally playing in studios, so I kinda got hit from all sides by the technologies. Plus I'm a nerd about technical stuff in general, though mostly now I prefer to make a loud noise with my guitars, amps, or modelers.

The higher-end equipment manufacturers are targeting a different audience than the low-end. The typical customer for the higher-end gear already understands how the cabinet's attributes, i.e. design, construction, size, shape, and materials, need to work with a certain sized speaker or speakers to help the combination of the cabinet and speaker sound their best, so they leave out a lot of that information because it'd be redundant to repeat what is in the acoustic and physics books.

Yeah, I see that it's harder to find the information from the manufacturer, but we can get it from various recording and FOH-oriented sites, or we can tug on the shirt of our FOH or recording engineer friends and buy them a beer and ask them questions about it. A dear friend of mine has had a long career designing and building studios and worked in very well-known studios helping record big artists so I'll ping him with questions occasionally, he'll do a brain dump and point me at various articles. I think it's fascinating stuff but some people are intimidated by the technical side of it and "just want to plaaaaaay!"

The low-end manufacturers rely on their PR machine to spew glittering words and charts that really don't tell us anything because they don't want that information out there, basically… in my opinion. And, they throw money at magazines and stores to sell their gear, and they target those who might want to know but don't necessarily want to spend money, or time, to learn why there are these layers to the equipment and technologies. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play only, but having some knowledge about how it works helps immeasurably when picking gear.

I imagine everyone has spent too much time buying the next great thing that was advertised as being the perfect solution to problem X, found out it didn't help, ended up buying something else, and probably sold the previous thing. Whoever personifies wisdom in our lives would probably want us to learn that buying and trying then selling things doesn't help us unless we've learned how to use it in depth before deciding it won't do what we want and trying something else, but that'd run counter to the PR machine and the desires of the manufacturers of the gizmos to separate us from our money.

Hopefully, we learn that the cycle is both an endless loop and a dead end. You said:



Dude, I'm on my feet clapping.

I think Yek did a remarkable job curating "Connections and levels" in the Wiki, especially the "Setups" section which is about using FRFR or regular cabinets.

It's a big document, and needs to be read slowly and repeatedly by me, because it contains a lot of wisdom and knowledge. Cliff (AKA @FractalAudio) really understands this stuff, not just the electronics, but also the physical and acoustical sides of it. Also, the Tech Notes contain great information. A lot of it whooshes past my brain, but, again, repeated reading slowly reveals what Cliff was writing about.


great insights - psychology comes into it as well for me as I have limited budget for gear - so lower cost and shiny can suck me in, and at the same time I don't want to make costly mistakes: it can be a minefield of: higher cost items that don't deliver, or lower cost items that seem good but later finding the deficiencies and having to replace it. Finding trusted experts to get guidance from is definitely key (which is why I don't do the "follow" thing much but Yek is on my list).
 
Some background: I started with running a small FOH system for a church choir at about the same time I picked up an acoustic guitar, then moved up to running FOH for various bands, sometimes in a dedicated space, sometimes in wherever they were booked inside and out, then to helping run sound at small festivals, while selling high-end audio systems, then selling custom mixing boards, all while also playing electric guitar in bands, and occasionally playing in studios, so I kinda got hit from all sides by the technologies. Plus I'm a nerd about technical stuff in general, though mostly now I prefer to make a loud noise with my guitars, amps, or modelers.

The higher-end equipment manufacturers are targeting a different audience than the low-end. The typical customer for the higher-end gear already understands how the cabinet's attributes, i.e. design, construction, size, shape, and materials, need to work with a certain sized speaker or speakers to help the combination of the cabinet and speaker sound their best, so they leave out a lot of that information because it'd be redundant to repeat what is in the acoustic and physics books.

Yeah, I see that it's harder to find the information from the manufacturer, but we can get it from various recording and FOH-oriented sites, or we can tug on the shirt of our FOH or recording engineer friends and buy them a beer and ask them questions about it. A dear friend of mine has had a long career designing and building studios and worked in very well-known studios helping record big artists so I'll ping him with questions occasionally, he'll do a brain dump and point me at various articles. I think it's fascinating stuff but some people are intimidated by the technical side of it and "just want to plaaaaaay!"

The low-end manufacturers rely on their PR machine to spew glittering words and charts that really don't tell us anything because they don't want that information out there, basically… in my opinion. And, they throw money at magazines and stores to sell their gear, and they target those who might want to know but don't necessarily want to spend money, or time, to learn why there are these layers to the equipment and technologies. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play only, but having some knowledge about how it works helps immeasurably when picking gear.

I imagine everyone has spent too much time buying the next great thing that was advertised as being the perfect solution to problem X, found out it didn't help, ended up buying something else, and probably sold the previous thing. Whoever personifies wisdom in our lives would probably want us to learn that buying and trying then selling things doesn't help us unless we've learned how to use it in depth before deciding it won't do what we want and trying something else, but that'd run counter to the PR machine and the desires of the manufacturers of the gizmos to separate us from our money.

Hopefully, we learn that the cycle is both an endless loop and a dead end. You said:



Dude, I'm on my feet clapping.
Heh. I have a friend who does sound for us on occasion, he LOVES to talk sound. Gotta give him a beer to shut up!:D

He also likes to ask trick questions, e.g." what travels faster in air, high or low frequencies?". He said a lot of people give the wrong answer (I didn't)...
 
Heh. I have a friend who does sound for us on occasion, he LOVES to talk sound. Gotta give him a beer to shut up!:D

He also likes to ask trick questions, e.g." what travels faster in air, high or low frequencies?". He said a lot of people give the wrong answer (I didn't)...
I’d probably lift my glasses with my middle finger slowly, very slowly, just to let him know I know. :)
 
The FRFR can’t be blamed for the guitarist’s bad decisions on stage. The same problems can occur using a Katana, or solid-state or tube amp into a regular guitar cabinet, if the player hops between amp models, or uses extremes in their EQ, or even using a tube combo with pedals that have sounds that go from screeching highs to booming muddy lows. Don’t blame the equipment for the bad choices of the person using it.

An FRFR is an incredible tool that allows one cabinet to output the sound of the modeler, something the Katana doesn’t do as well since it’s designed to compliment that particular amp and cabinet with their attending limitations. It’s understandable that people gravitate to cheaper solutions just to get started, but there’s no reason to try to tear down the much more widely accepted solutions that were designed for the modeler.
Absolutely agree with this.

I've been using FRFR with floor monitors or a CLR as backline amp over the last 10 years and experienced no difficulties with PA guys, not any. BTW, as for now PA guys rarely re-eq'ed my sound.

I'm not using a Katana but a simple floor monitor. I found the Katana sounding a tiny bit boxy for my taste. Thomann presents it as a good amp for debuting, and IMHO that's exactly what it is.
 
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