IRs are 90% of the sound

In regards to IR's changing the feel of the amp, I say it has to be a matter of perception and I believe it to be completely true. First off, different frequencies from your guitar have different decays when playing. Changing the relationship between the amplitude of different frequency bands will change how you perceive the sound, thanks to psychoacoustics (amplitude- and frequency masking, etc.). Second and lastly, the way you monitor your sound will to some degree also change the dynamics. Some rooms and monitors (and even the reverbs you put after the cab block) have different decay times for different frequencies.
 
When I experience my guitar feels stiff in a patch I usually turn to the tube hardness parameter in the amp block. This parameter usually fixes my issue. At least to some degree.
 
Did someone tell Cliff that Fractal Amp Modeling is only 10% of the sound yet?

Well even if the model was 90 percent of the sound and top grade which I know the AFX3 is, what's the point when routing into a smeared sounding final 10 percent of the signal that muddies up your sound?

But like I said, Ownhammer or Two Notes so far. After the monitor switch. And some factory ones and I will not say which.
Any others out there that are good?

And I reccomend buying a pair of Adams because if you are monitoring on the Yamahas, crappy Yorkville or even snake oil Dynaudio, then it's obvious why you are saying some of the things you are saying.

I'm just trying to help open up a new perspective here because it does exist. Adams make more obvious otherwise subtle things on other monitors. And they make better is more accurate.

Otherwise you are basically telling me I'm crazy for dismissing 90 percent of my IRs after my monitor switch. But I can assure you that Adams are very revealing, whether it's revealing high definition realism and clarity or muddy smear, BOTH of which are usually covered up by bad quality monitors that are smeared themselves with a combination of low grade components and poor crossover design. The result of that is not determining the caliber of different AB-ed IRs too well.
 
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But...a lot of the way people talk about sound doesn't make any sense to me.

Just know that you are not alone in your observations. And what also doesn't make sense to me is how people are clearly not hearing or perceiving reality well but my only conclusion it just must me monitoring issues. There are so few good speaker monitors out there and so much snake oil in the realm of monitor shopping. Biggest scam out there being Dynaudio.

I'm glad finally somebody understands these issues I too have experienced, and even more people who have commented in here so at least we know we are not insane.

These matters are the same things I have both suspected when I didn't have the greatest monitors before (in which case the perception was more psycho-acoustic due to smearing from their lack of clarity), but also which I have confirmed as obvious with my new very revealing monitors with regard to determining that there are mostly poor to mediocre quality IRs on the market with very few exceptions out there in companies.

But as for some of the other isues you mention about dynamics and breakup and all that other stuff, there must be something you are ding wrong in the amp bloc. But do try Ownhammer IRs.
 
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My tinnitus infected ears / brain creates a smeared, unrevealing sound anyway, so guess I'll keep my crappy Yamahas

Interesting you mentioned that. When I had the yamahas, they certainly were very fatiguing on the ears for listening for long extended periods. The harshness of the tweeters on those Yamaha's certainly can be the cause of that tinnitus especially if you are cranking or going for long periods.

I noticed my ability to listen both louder and for much longer extended periods of time on the Adam's thanks to those ribbons. Very easy on the ears.

I'm telling you, you don't have to believe me, just go listen to them at your pro audio dealer, even the entry level T series which is at the same price point as the yamahas. Once you go ribbons you will never go back.
 
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Interesting you mentioned that. When I had the yamahas, they certainly were very fatiguing on the ears for listening for long extended periods. The harshness of the tweeters on those Yamaha's certainly can be the cause of that tinnitus especially if you are cranking or going for long periods.

I noticed my ability to listen both louder and for much longer extended periods of time on the Adam's thanks to those ribbons. Very easy on the ears.

I'm telling you, you don't have to believe me, just go listen to them at your pro audio dealer, even the entry level T series which is at the same price point as the yamahas. Once you go ribbons you will never go back.
stop, yur giving me g.a.s. 😀
 
Just know that you are not alone in your observations. And what also doesn't make sense to me is how people are clearly not hearing or perceiving reality well but my only conclusion it just must me monitoring issues. There are so few good speaker monitors out there and so much snake oil in the realm of monitor shopping. Biggest scam out there being Dynaudio.

I'm glad finally somebody understands these issues I too have experienced, and even more people who have commented in here so at least we know we are not insane.

These matters are the same things I have both suspected when I didn't have the greatest monitors before (in which case the perception was more psycho-acoustic due to smearing from their lack of clarity), but also which I have confirmed as obvious with my new very revealing monitors with regard to determining that there are mostly poor to mediocre quality IRs on the market with very few exceptions out there in companies.

But as for some of the other isues you mention about dynamics and breakup and all that other stuff, there must be something you are ding wrong in the amp bloc. But do try Ownhammer IRs.

I agree and disagree. I don't think I'm doing anything wrong in the amp block, mostly because I'm happy with my sound. I also don't find the need to shop for IRs. I found a factory IR that was close enough and EQd it. I'm happier with it than I have been any real speaker I've tried. There are a couple things I tweak if I'm playing louder or quieter than usual. But, it just works the way I want it to. And, I can't really say anything better about a piece of gear.

I do agree about bad speakers coloring everything. That shouldn't be news to anyone. But, what exactly a good or bad speaker is....that's a lot harder to figure out without just experiencing a lot of them (or trusting independent measurements....like ASR). The sheer BS I've heard from supposedly experienced people....that's not a short list. But, some of them get really good results, so obviously it works for them. So...whatever.
 
Thanks for all the responses guys:

@skolacki - The saturation is purposefully on. The 3 positions are off, on ideal, on authentic. The difference between On ideal, and authentic, is huge. The saturation knob is dialed there because in this particular situation in gave a dusting to all of the notes in an even manner. I am aware of the Triodes being tune-able, I've tried it before, but am still trying to grasp how all of the elements work as a whole. It would be interesting to list under 'Highs" for example, all the potential contributors, i.e. speaker highs, bias in the pwr amp, presence, upper highs, Master vol cap, etc. Just off the top of my head, I'm at work so am going fast.

@unix-guy - The Preamp Boost switch is only related to Boost Type and Boost Level. When it is OFF there should be NO effect from either of those controls.

I thought the Boost switch was also related to the Saturation, I guess not. When it is off however, there still is an effect, you see I have full-OD picked as a boost type, when I switched to Shred as a boost type, there was in fact a change, even with switch turned to off. It was more subtle than with the switch turned to on, but it was there.

And I reccomend buying a pair of Adams because if you are monitoring on the Yamahas, crappy Yorkville or even snake oil Dynaudio, then it's obvious why you are saying some of the things you are saying.

I'm just trying to help open up a new perspective here because it does exist. Adams make more obvious otherwise subtle things on other monitors. And they make better is more accurate.

Monitors are, at this point in my understanding, easily, the most important part of this whole business. If you are serious, and you want to do recordings or are in a band, invest a ton of time into learning about monitors, go and listen to them using the music you want to create. Even with my limited understanding of monitors I could hear KRK Rokits were so bass heavy. I just bought Yamaha HR8's, and what you wrote kind of bummed me out. I don't have much money, I put the Yamahas on credit. I've used them for about 5 minutes to check that they work and all the switches work, they do. But what you wrote about the importance of monitors rings true to me. I live in an apt, so neighbors are a consideration, so I thought headphones could be a solution, I read some reviews and people seemed to dig the DT770 pros, I bought them ... oops. I knew right away that they were way too sweet, sold them, did more research and bought ATH R70x, much better, especially the stereo image, but, still too sweet. That's why I get the shock of 'too much hi-end' when I finish doing a session with them, and then listen back through my earbuds, which are pretty good Samsung units. Why'd I pick the Yamaha HS8's. Because I saw a shootout between them and similarly priced JBL's, and KRK's and could hear, even with earbuds that the Yamaha's were reflecting the audio back more neutrally. BUT, I was listening to a shootout, with earbuds! Oops, through a laptops soundcard, 2nd Oops. lol. Only one thing to do, go to a pro audio store and listen to the monitors yourself with the music you listen to.

I'm thinking of the massive amount of hours I've spent tweaking and tweaking and tweaking away, only to realize ... my monitoring was lying to me. Arrrrghhhhhhhhh.

About 10 years ago, all I could afford for monitors were $300 Yorkvilles. Guess what, they were pretty knarly, and I mean that in a good way. I listened to Sheryl Crows "all I wanna do" on them and remember thinking "wow, everything is right there, like I could touch the damn instrument it was so there" ... I'm reluctant to admit that the Yamahas don't even do this because I might not have a proper understanding of how to use them. ( or, I'm in denial )

True story. A friend of mine is a top-notch musician, he'd send me mixes, and they were pretty good. Then, he sent me a mix, really good, another, really good again, another, really good again, another, really good again? I emailed him and told him, 'man your mixes are really consistent, you're getting good at this!" he wrote back and said he bought some good monitors. Oh.

You. Must. Get. Good. Monitors. if you're serious.
 
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The difference between On ideal, and authentic, is huge.
The only difference as far as I'm aware is volume.

This was originally (on Axe Fx II) an on/off control. The issue is that in the authentic circuit, turning on the Saturation would lower the volume.

The ideal option was added to prevent that.

The Blocks Guide says the same:

2B0EE987-DDBF-4107-9EAB-8A4F40C8845C.jpeg
I thought the Boost switch was also related to the Saturation, I guess not. When it is off however, there still is an effect, you see I have full-OD picked as a boost type, when I switched to Shred as a boost type, there was in fact a change, even with switch turned to off. It was more subtle than with the switch turned to on, but it was there.
I'm away from my Axe Fx III for a while so I can't check, but if that is happening then I think it's a bug.
 
I'm telling you, you don't have to believe me, just go listen to them at your pro audio dealer, even the entry level T series which is at the same price point as the yamahas. Once you go ribbons you will never go back.
Wasn't kidding about the g.a.s. - looking at these Adam T8Vs in the online store - ya!, 20% cheaper than the HS8s I bought not that long ago. I think I'm having a doh!l moment as I follow and respect this guy's opinion on hi-end audio and he also says here ribbon tweeters are the bee's knees, so maybe that translates to FRFR for guitar. Gonna go and have a side by side listen at the store - maybe trade in the Y's for a new set of Adams (hopefully boxes included 🤣 ).
 
Thanks for all the responses guys:

@skolacki - The saturation is purposefully on. The 3 positions are off, on ideal, on authentic. The difference between On ideal, and authentic, is huge. The saturation knob is dialed there because in this particular situation in gave a dusting to all of the notes in an even manner. I am aware of the Triodes being tune-able, I've tried it before, but am still trying to grasp how all of the elements work as a whole. It would be interesting to list under 'Highs" for example, all the potential contributors, i.e. speaker highs, bias in the pwr amp, presence, upper highs, Master vol cap, etc. Just off the top of my head, I'm at work so am going fast.



I thought the Boost switch was also related to the Saturation, I guess not. When it is off however, there still is an effect, you see I have full-OD picked as a boost type, when I switched to Shred as a boost type, there was in fact a change, even with switch turned to off. It was more subtle than with the switch turned to on, but it was there.



Monitors are, at this point in my understanding, easily, the most important part of this whole business. If you are serious, and you want to do recordings or are in a band, invest a ton of time into learning about monitors, go and listen to them using the music you want to create. Even with my limited understanding of monitors I could hear KRK Rokits were so bass heavy. I just bought Yamaha HR8's, and what you wrote kind of bummed me out. I don't have much money, I put the Yamahas on credit. I've used them for about 5 minutes to check that they work and all the switches work, they do. But what you wrote about the importance of monitors rings true to me. I live in an apt, so neighbors are a consideration, so I thought headphones could be a solution, I read some reviews and people seemed to dig the DT770 pros, I bought them ... oops. I knew right away that they were way too sweet, sold them, did more research and bought ATH R70x, much better, especially the stereo image, but, still too sweet. That's why I get the shock of 'too much hi-end' when I finish doing a session with them, and then listen back through my earbuds, which are pretty good Samsung units. Why'd I pick the Yamaha HS8's. Because I saw a shootout between them and similarly priced JBL's, and KRK's and could hear, even with earbuds that the Yamaha's were reflecting the audio back more neutrally. BUT, I was listening to a shootout, with earbuds! Oops, through a laptops soundcard, 2nd Oops. lol. Only one thing to do, go to a pro audio store and listen to the monitors yourself with the music you listen to.

I'm thinking of the massive amount of hours I've spent tweaking and tweaking and tweaking away, only to realize ... my monitoring was lying to me. Arrrrghhhhhhhhh.

About 10 years ago, all I could afford for monitors were $300 Yorkvilles. Guess what, they were pretty knarly, and I mean that in a good way. I listened to Sheryl Crows "all I wanna do" on them and remember thinking "wow, everything is right there, like I could touch the damn instrument it was so there" ... I'm reluctant to admit that the Yamahas don't even do this because I might not have a proper understanding of how to use them. ( or, I'm in denial )

True story. A friend of mine is a top-notch musician, he'd send me mixes, and they were pretty good. Then, he sent me a mix, really good, another, really good again, another, really good again, another, really good again? I emailed him and told him, 'man your mixes are really consistent, you're getting good at this!" he wrote back and said he bought some good monitors. Oh.

You. Must. Get. Good. Monitors. if you're serious.
LOL

Don't worry the yamahas are stll decent and you can get good work done on them. There's a reason why they had early won for many years as industry standard n the budget category over everything else.
But it is still hard to relay the sound of an accurately captured a guitar rig through the yamahas and expect the things to sound like you are beside a guitar cab. Even if you are monitoring an amp cab for real with them there is still limitations with those monitors.

To others who may be questioning why I'm bringing up monitors, as Marantz has said, the monitors are so important here in all of this.

If you want the real deal get the Adam s-series. I wish I had the S3V. But at 4 grand a monitor not yet. I basically ran out of budget again because of allocating priority to a used avid HDX rig so the only option was the Adam T5V's. They are still awesome.
 
Wasn't kidding about the g.a.s. - looking at these Adam T8Vs in the online store - ya!, 20% cheaper than the HS8s I bought not that long ago. I think I'm having a doh!l moment as I follow and respect this guy's opinion on hi-end audio and he also says here ribbon tweeters are the bee's knees, so maybe that translates to FRFR for guitar. Gonna go and have a side by side listen at the store - maybe trade in the Y's for a new set of Adams (hopefully boxes included 🤣 ).

Ya sorry to have to burst your Yamaha bubble. They aren't bad at all but there is easily a new winner in the budget class and still has that expensive hi-fi sound to it.

Ignore all the other monitor brands in the store and pretend they don't even exist. Focal is good too but only their really high end stuff.

When shopping, the Long McQuade salesperson allowed me to AB hear the Adam T5V, T7V, and T8V (while going back to the so called 'industry standard' Yamaha reference hooked up too on the switcher).

I almost grabbed the T5V but went with the T7V. The T8V is a bit looser on the bass but they are all amazing. I may even buy T5V for just recreational music listening in the living room area of the apartment. The stuff is that good.
 
Ya sorry to have to burst your Yamaha bubble. They aren't bad at all but there is easily a new winner in the budget class and still has that expensive hi-fi sound to it.

Ignore all the other monitor brands in the store and pretend they don't even exist. Focal is good too but only their really high end stuff.

When shopping, the Long McQuade salesperson allowed me to AB hear the Adam T5V, T7V, and T8V (while going back to the so called 'industry standard' Yamaha reference hooked up too on the switcher).

I almost grabbed the T5V but went with the T7V. The T8V is a bit looser on the bass but they are all amazing. I may even buy T5V for just recreational music listening in the living room area of the apartment. The stuff is that good.
I do 4 channel for listening to Apple Spacial audio and the odd crazy experiement trying to get a fully surrounding rotary tone so I may consider adding Adams and moving the Ys to the back channels + sell off the KRKs that are there now.
 
Good luck with that.

After this trek so far, I'm gonna have to say that that any speaker monitor manufacturer or fanboi that says a studio reference monitor that's 'flat' HAS TO sound boring, sterile, and dead, is nothing more than a case of being a shill for speakers that simply don't give'r.

Am very curious to hear what the Adam S3V monitors sound like. But may be a good idea to not go there as I'll likely get depressed if I do and realize I can't have them.
 
Ah, okay.

Is it possible to turn the speaker section in the amp completely off? My guess is that it will sound awful, just going through the cab section. Here, I'll put my money where my mouth is. The only way I could get this non-fizzy tone was by putting a speaker before a speaker, or an IR before an IR. I can't describe technically why this worked, it just did. This is from free online software...


Is that you on the soundcard link? Nice runs! You influenced by Zappa?
 
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Is that you on the soundcard link? Nice runs! You influenced by Zappa?

You may want to try the PRS archon model in the Fractal? Although it may be a bit too high gain still for what you are doing.

Yes that's my playing, thanks for the kind words, I'm not influenced by Zappa at all, although his solo on "Montana" is killer.

Over the last 2 years when trying amp sims I built a list of what I wanted them to do during a solo.
  • palm-mute high-strings legato ( tough for a sim to do without a ton of gain )
  • palm-mute low-strings legato - easy enough, but still look for articulation
  • fast alternate picking, palm muted, lower strings - looking for articulation, you can hear this right near the end of the track. On the Axe this is an issue with Tube Hardness and setting the speaker to anything other than Soft, at the moment.
  • fast alternate picking high strings - make sure there isn't a painful spikiness in the hi's.

The track was done, pre AXE 3, with a JCM800 amp sim by a guy named Nalex. He just has a blog. The amp sim crashes a lot, but I love it, I wish I could upload this into the Axe. For cabs I can't remember what I used, but it was the usual speaker following a speaker setup.

This is what I'd be very happy with as a solo tone, if I can pull it out of the Axe. Go to 3:10, during this solo, Paul Gilbert has backed off the distortion, it's a dirty/clean tone, with tons of punch, he does a quick lick on the high strings with palm-muting and all the notes punch out nicely, also, that's an Ibanez, and it sounds almost more Fendery than a Strat, it's got a beautiful bell-like quality on the lower-strings that reminds me of SRV.

 
Yes that's my playing, thanks for the kind words, I'm not influenced by Zappa at all, although his solo on "Montana" is killer.

Over the last 2 years when trying amp sims I built a list of what I wanted them to do during a solo.
  • palm-mute high-strings legato ( tough for a sim to do without a ton of gain )
  • palm-mute low-strings legato - easy enough, but still look for articulation
  • fast alternate picking, palm muted, lower strings - looking for articulation, you can hear this right near the end of the track. On the Axe this is an issue with Tube Hardness and setting the speaker to anything other than Soft, at the moment.
  • fast alternate picking high strings - make sure there isn't a painful spikiness in the hi's.

The track was done, pre AXE 3, with a JCM800 amp sim by a guy named Nalex. He just has a blog. The amp sim crashes a lot, but I love it, I wish I could upload this into the Axe. For cabs I can't remember what I used, but it was the usual speaker following a speaker setup.

This is what I'd be very happy with as a solo tone, if I can pull it out of the Axe. Go to 3:10, during this solo, Paul Gilbert has backed off the distortion, it's a dirty/clean tone, with tons of punch, he does a quick lick on the high strings with palm-muting and all the notes punch out nicely, also, that's an Ibanez, and it sounds almost more Fendery than a Strat, it's got a beautiful bell-like quality on the lower-strings that reminds me of SRV.


Oh gotcha. But I dont think this is primarily about IRs in your case if that's the type of sound you are lookin for. At 3:10 I have been trying to get this type of sound for the longest time as well for another type of sound I'm trying to add to my repertoire.

It's a more instant type of breakup and gain characteristic. At least from this Paul Gilbert Clip. Sounds to me he may even be using a modded JCM900 which has lots of solid state circuitry and telling people he is using something else.

And believe it or not, that may be your answer as to why you may be having issues getting what you want out of the Fractal. You may be needing solid state amplification or modeling for the type of sound you are going for. Many artists lie and say they use tube but actually have solid state or at least some solid state op-amp based tone somewhere in the circuit. It has happened with even one of my favorites who is not even well known but who has sent me on a wild goose chase with every tone lie under the sun till I found out what he actually uses from one pic I noticed and it was a sansamp psa-1. Which I've also requested to be modeled in the Fractal.

Or it can be a solid state based pedal combined with a heavily modded tube amp. These pros go through ridiculous mods and tons of them - to both tube circuits and solid state ones. They have the endless money to be able to hire people for that.

You may want to try the JMP Pre-1 model in the fractal as it's the closest I've been able to get to a fast solid state sound. But I'm still not quite able to get the type of sound I'm looking for in

It's possible to do with tubes too but you need some crazy amp mods to get it right but if you do get it right with a tube amp, it's amazing.

All these reasons is why I have for the longest time been requesting a JCM900 model. The 3:10 part of that clip you sent made me instantly think of that amp.

Avid makes a decent sansamp PSA-1 plug-in in both AAX and AAX DSP. But it doesn't sound like the older first generation of the rack which was the much better one and then Sansamp change the circuit to a cheaper circuit in the later 1.1 to reduce production costs. I hate it when companies do that. It makes you pull your hair out and treat your units as if they are darts and your drywall as if it's the dartboard.
 
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Well even if the model was 90 percent of the sound and top grade which I know the AFX3 is, what's the point when routing into a smeared sounding final 10 percent of the signal that muddies up your sound?

But like I said, Ownhammer or Two Notes so far. After the monitor switch. And some factory ones and I will not say which.
Any others out there that are good?

And I reccomend buying a pair of Adams because if you are monitoring on the Yamahas, crappy Yorkville or even snake oil Dynaudio, then it's obvious why you are saying some of the things you are saying.

I'm just trying to help open up a new perspective here because it does exist. Adams make more obvious otherwise subtle things on other monitors. And they make better is more accurate.

Otherwise you are basically telling me I'm crazy for dismissing 90 percent of my IRs after my monitor switch. But I can assure you that Adams are very revealing, whether it's revealing high definition realism and clarity or muddy smear, BOTH of which are usually covered up by bad quality monitors that are smeared themselves with a combination of low grade components and poor crossover design. The result of that is not determining the caliber of different AB-ed IRs too well.

You were/are the one struggling to get a good sound, not me. :)
 
Hi guys after buying almost every ir on the market i realized that find the right one makes the 90% of the sound of a preset.. Anyway i also discovered that between two that sounds good one could let the feel different under the hands. For example i ve tried a Marshall 4x12 with g12m25 greenbacks and a Marshall with g12t75. I like the sound of both but with the 75 the strings seems to be heavier and stiffier under the fingers... Is it the normal interactions between amp and cab or it depends by irs? Which parameters can handle this type of acting? Speaker compression?
Thanks
Different speaker cabs will make amps accentuate certain frequencies and overtone harmonics. This in turn makes the brain think that there is something going on with the feel of the guitar. This is why if you run a Celestion Greenback 25w cab IR vs a JBL or EV cab IR they can give the aural illusion of the guitar having a spongy feel compared to a heavier or tighter one.
 
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