Axe III via Studio Monitor v.s. Tube Combo at the Same Volume

I can't afford the amps it's emulating, not 10% of them, in some cases not even one.
Same here - I bought/sold a bunch of tube amps in the past but really can't afford new ones - or, at least for me, owning Axefx reduces the value proposition of new tube amps so much that I prefer to spend my $ elsewhere. I have a nice little Blackstar combo and Matrix>2xMesa112 Cabs to scratch that itch if it arises - not being a gigging musician (actually, barely a musician :)), I don't need any big volume and I actually prefer mic'd cab tones versus AITR

Edit: It does amaze me though that some Axefx Amp models inspire some players so much that they go out and buy the real amp in addition. For a long time I could not understand why some amp manufacturers would want their amp modelled officially in Axefx (Friedman, Revv maybe) as I thought it must reduce their sales - but I guess this is why - if the model is good enough, there's a segment of players that will be prompted by the model to purchase the real amp also, while others (like me) will never drop 3k on a Friedman no matter what - having it modelled in Axefx is not a lost sale for Friedman where I am concerned
 
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Today, I spent some quality time with a 68 Custom Vibrolux Reverb on an amp stand side by side with my Axe III through a pair of Genelec 8330 (GLM calibrated) on my desk.

The 68 CVR is really a nice amp with custom Schumacher transformer, it sounds, feels and responds great at low or high volume, it reminds me all the reasons we love tube amps. However, under direct comparison, Axe III plus studio monitor sounds OK but feel quite a bit meh... Both setups were played side by side at around 95DB, so not quiet but not super loud. Such difference is all the more obvious for clean (high dynamic) playing. Here is the difference:
1. The tube combo reacts more immediately at the beginning of the picking, hence it feels more immediately connected with the fingers.
2. However, after the immediate response, tube combo ramp up the dynamic more smoothly, slowly and musically, which allows me to explore the dynamic range of the response more easily.

On the other hand, Axe III plus monitors seem to do exactly the opposite:
1. It seems to have some (very subtle) delay in the very initial reaction, e.g. there is an ever tiny delay, making the amp feel less connected with the finger. I have tried things to minimize the delay all this time, including upgrading my studio monitors, using AES digital directly from Axe III to monitor, saving some A/D/A conversion etc, but it remains very much tangible to me.
2. Once the initial delay is over, the amp responds much more eagerly, e.g. it then jumps from quiet to loud too quickly as I vary the picking strength.

By the way, so far no modeler or any SS amp is able to nail either one above for me, they all exhibit such tiny delay and SS like dynamic more or less.

Interestingly, when wearing my IEM, I am less bothered by these two factors, and somehow they seems quite lessoned, which I suspect has something to do with the (good) quality of headphone amp used in Axe III....

I know, we musicians sometimes could be a nuanced anal bunch about such subtle details, but they often make a world of difference for our playing experience....

Thoughts?

I can relate to the point that you are making. I eventually just got tired of trying to solve the very nuanced issue that I notice yet some other don't. I have an Axe-III, an FM-3 and an AX-8 and would never get rid of them because they solve a lot of issues in the various ways that I use them. Out of all the rigs I have, the most satisfying for me in all aspects that you point out here is my AX-8 run 4CM through my 2203x and a pair of 4x12 with original G12-80 and Greenbacks. I just love everything that I get out of that setup. Crisp, chewy, deep and everything else I love about a JCM800. But that rig stays at home for obvious reasons. For me, what ever nuance I think that the Fractal cannot quite replicate for me, they more than make up for it in the convenience, flexibility and the reliability that they offer.

I really wish that I could understand what that difference is that I perceive. I really think that is has more to do with the limitation of guitar speakers in general with respects to their inability to accurately convert the signal they receive into sound that our ears receive - and everyone's ears are different.

The reason that I think it's in the speakers is because I took a powered Matrix Q12A once that I was not unhappy with and pulled out the FRFR driver, bypassed the crossover and put a Greenback in the cabinet. I loved the sound. I felt more connected to that rig.

But again, I just got tired of being distracted by this subject and went back to just playing and focusing on the overall band.

Good post though...
 
Same here - I bought/sold a bunch of tube amps in the past but really can't afford new ones - or, at least for me, owning Axefx reduces the value proposition of new tube amps so much that I prefer to spend my $ elsewhere. I have a nice little Blackstar combo and Matrix>2xMesa112 Cabs to scratch that itch if it arises - not being a gigging musician (actually, barely a musician :)), I don't need any big volume and I actually prefer mic'd cab tones versus AITR

Edit: It does amaze me though that some Axefx Amp models inspire some players so much that they go out and buy the real amp in addition. For a long time I could not understand why some amp manufacturers would want their amp modelled officially in Axefx (Friedman, Revv maybe) as I thought it must reduce their sales - but I guess this is why - if the model is good enough, there's a segment of players that will be prompted by the model to purchase the real amp also, while others (like me) will never drop 3k on a Friedman no matter what - having it modelled in Axefx is not a lost sale for Friedman where I am concerned

That is exactly it right there. People who can't justify buying a load of expensive amps would, at best, buy used. Used sales do nothing for the amp makers.

But if someone discovers they love a very accurate reproduction of an amp, then they can perhaps justify the price.

The main overlap in customer there is mainly a benefit to amp brands and Revv gets it. I think Dave Friedman understands that as well.
 
Maybe I missed some posts: can you give me one example of users “gang-up” ?
All I have seen is a bunch of people trying to explain that tube amp and modelers + FRFR are entirely different experiences; I didn’t see anyone overreacting or being dismissive.
But maybe I didn’t read all the posts.
agreed, there's definitely been none of that in this post.
 
That is exactly it right there. People who can't justify buying a load of expensive amps would, at best, buy used. Used sales do nothing for the amp makers.

But if someone discovers they love a very accurate reproduction of an amp, then they can perhaps justify the price.

The main overlap in customer there is mainly a benefit to amp brands and Revv gets it. I think Dave Friedman understands that as well.
Alan Phillips, of Carol Ann amplifier fame, was a big believer and fan of Fractal's work and worked with Cliff on many modeling projects to get as close as possible. The Amplifier models list has some really good comments from him and he said somewhere that he appreciated that the modeler could help direct people to the real amps. But, unfortunately he's no longer making them.
 
I've had a few nice amps, starting with a Studio 22 that I paid off to my Mom for years, had a short affair with a Blues Deluxe, but couldn't really bond, a Soldano SL 60, a Vibroverb clone, a Blackface Twin clone I built myself, an SLO 100, two 1987x, a Metro 12xxxx, a Mk V 25 and a Mk IV. I played vintage AC30s, Matchless and vintage Fenders at sessions... Since I have the Axe FX III only the Mark IV remains, mostly for aesthetic and sentimental reasons; I hardly switch it on, maybe twice a year.

This is just to illustrate that I have an analogue, tube background.

I am not missing anything in terms of feel and the tones I get are amazing (for me, not saying you guys would be impressed, who knows). Lately I have been stuck on a Vibroverb / Super Reverb preset of mine and it feels super authentic to me. Better than i have ever been able to get with "real" amps.

BUT: if posts and discussions like this here help to unlock more authenticity in feel that I don't even know it lacked, I'm all for it!

(and I'm sure the usual yes-sayers will applaud its implementation in the FW update threads... ;) )
 
By the way, forgot to mention earlier, I had exactly the same experience comparing Axe III with PowerCab 212 v.s. tube combo. In this comparison, both set ups are AITR, and PC212 is THE best output system I have tried with modelers, after going through multiple FRFRs, etc...
Wow. Surprised and comforted to hear that praise.

I've always thought the PC212+ sounded awesome with AF3, but I have no other FRFR/monitor experience to compare.

Ignorance IS bliss, in that regard. Though BD DT880 headphones sound great too.

The PC212 tends to get crapped on (because it's L6), but I must say the sound impresses me. I couldn't distinguish it from any of my tube combos.

If there's a better FRFR speaker out there I would love to hear it in person.

Some of those minute sonic details are what set amps apart. I suppose once you pick up on something you like, and it's missing from something else, it becomes a matter of tradeoffs. Convenience vs. sonic purity.
 
Wow. Surprised and comforted to hear that praise.

I've always thought the PC212+ sounded awesome with AF3, but I have no other FRFR/monitor experience to compare.

Ignorance IS bliss, in that regard. Though BD DT880 headphones sound great too.

The PC212 tends to get crapped on (because it's L6), but I must say the sound impresses me. I couldn't distinguish it from any of my tube combos.

If there's a better FRFR speaker out there I would love to hear it in person.

Some of those minute sonic details are what set amps apart. I suppose once you pick up on something you like, and it's missing from something else, it becomes a matter of tradeoffs. Convenience vs. sonic purity.
For loud/live use case and for AITR, nothing that I tried beats PC212. However, for home usage, I prefer near range studio monitors.
 
I totally dig my Axe III.
It doesn't matter how I hook it up or to what I hook it up to.
The most amazing single piece of gear I have ever owned.

Then again, I'm not ever sitting around comparing real amps to the models because I don't care. I figure the Fractal folks have done all of that.

I just play the thing. It works w every guitar I have too.
 
I don't need them to "feel" the same, but I wonder why I always prefer the feel from a nice tube amps....
I love some sounds from AX8 more than FM3 & Tube amps+fx.
I love some sounds from FM3 more than AX8 & Tube amps+fx.
I love some sounds from Tube amps+fx more than AX8 & FM3.

Sometimes is difficult to state and write down why I love and prefer one sound. Other than eq, I listen to various clipping type, their attack & decay, how they evolve over time, react to picking, to volume.
I think a sound is good in a context: a sound I love for a mix doesn't fit all mix!
I love crunch, but with complex chord sometimes I want no "crossover" distortion, sometimes I want an onset of it, sometimes I love nasty distortion. That's why I love tube amps, fuzz & overdrive boxes, & digital amps.
 
I love some sounds from AX8 more than FM3 & Tube amps+fx.
I love some sounds from FM3 more than AX8 & Tube amps+fx.
I love some sounds from Tube amps+fx more than AX8 & FM3.

Sometimes is difficult to state and write down why I love and prefer one sound. Other than eq, I listen to various clipping type, their attack & decay, how they evolve over time, react to picking, to volume.
I think a sound is good in a context: a sound I love for a mix doesn't fit all mix!
I love crunch, but with complex chord sometimes I want no "crossover" distortion, sometimes I want an onset of it, sometimes I love nasty distortion. That's why I love tube amps, fuzz & overdrive boxes, & digital amps.
It also may be that you have more hours in on the AX8 than the more recent versions, so you're both better at getting what you want from it, and used to what you do get. Not saying that's all that's happening, but it's unavoidably part of it.
 
To me 95 d IS super loud, actually pretty dangerous as a practice habit, maybe I am just getting old :)

At my bedroom practice / jam volumes, around 70 db, none of my actual amps sounded or felt better than my Axe, actually I sold the YJM and traded the JCM800 because at those volumes I enjoyed much more the Axe.

I also happen to play most of the time with some Reverb or Delay engaged and with those effects on, much of the picking differences you mention, that maybe are there, get diluted, let alone playing in a mix.

I sometimes think about getting an small tube amp for fun (still keep my modded JVM410C) but I remember when I had the Laney IRT Studio, that could do less than 1 W, it still was very loud and not sounding differentially better than my sims.
Actually 95 DB is in the realm of hearing loss, when heard for extended periods. After 50-60 mins, it is over that period.

I'd also dare the OP to get that vibrolux at edge of breakup and measure how loud it is. Can definately get the Axe setup for edge of breakup tone and respons, and still play that at 70-80db.
 
A couple of things here and meant with respect of course. This is subjective and a personal journey you have encountered. I also think your inquiry is super interesting. For me... it wasn't my experience. I had a beautiful half stack Marshall and I prefer the stereo image and the silence of the Axe.

I did not 'trust' the Axe when I first got it. I had double racks of equipment and there was no way it was going to replace my gear. One piece by one the gear wound up on Reverb or eBay down to a JMP-1 and then I discovered a preset that cloned the sound I was getting. Not only cloned it but did so without buzzing, had built in reverb and was in stereo so it was bye, bye JMP.
Bingo. Fender, Marshall, Peavey, Orange, all sold as the Axe replaced it.
 
If Cliff sees no "necessary" needs to be addressed from his massive user base, do you think innovation and development would continue down the same blistering path we have come to know and love?
Actually, yes, I do. Granted, I know Cliff only from the product and posts here. But, imho, he shows someone who is out to find modelling perfection, on it's own accord.
 
I agree that the power amp is the weak link in an Axe into Real Cab setup. I’ve tried repeatedly to use an SD 170 power amp at band rehearsal over the last few weeks and it just hasn’t pushed enough “grunt” into the cab. I would describe the sounds as not punchy at all. It’s not an EQ thing, but a speaker interaction thing.

So I got frustrated last night, unplugged the Axe and SD170 and switched to a small Mesa TA tube amp head and Boom! there was the sound. And at lower Dbs. No tweaking, no measuring resonant frequency, no deep editing, etc.

For my personal needs given I don’t play through a PA, I’m thinking about going back to tube amps for rehearsals.
 
Actually, yes, I do. Granted, I know Cliff only from the product and posts here. But, imho, he shows someone who is out to find modelling perfection, on it's own accord.

More food for thought:

Who do you think masters their craft first?

A chef who is the only person that tastes the food they prepare?

Or the chef who weighs the feedback of their patrons?

(seewhatididthere😜)
 
It also may be that you have more hours in on the AX8 than the more recent versions, so you're both better at getting what you want from it, and used to what you do get. Not saying that's all that's happening, but it's unavoidably part of it.
I think you maybe missed his point?

He basically said he prefers either AX8 or FM3 or real amp each in different cases.
 
I agree that the power amp is the weak link in an Axe into Real Cab setup. I’ve tried repeatedly to use an SD 170 power amp at band rehearsal over the last few weeks and it just hasn’t pushed enough “grunt” into the cab. I would describe the sounds as not punchy at all. It’s not an EQ thing, but a speaker interaction thing.

So I got frustrated last night, unplugged the Axe and SD170 and switched to a small Mesa TA tube amp head and Boom! there was the sound. And at lower Dbs. No tweaking, no measuring resonant frequency, no deep editing, etc.

For my personal needs given I don’t play through a PA, I’m thinking about going back to tube amps for rehearsals.

Grab a mesa 20/20 power amp?
 
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