Amp in the Room?

After googling "Axe Fx 3 amp in the room" this thread was the top result.
I tried the Filter block trick (no add. EQ) and it sounded amazing through my 1x12 FR cabs. My sound was brought to life and not weighted down with coloration of an IR.
When I tried through my Mackie HR624 monitors, the sound was too crispy and crunchy but a little EQ fixed the sound though.

This method got me thinking about mimicking actual speakers. I've been experimenting with the Filter block and adding either a GEQ and/or PEQ and tweaking the freq's to try and represent the response curves from Celestion. This way, any additional outboard gear is omitted from the signal chain that would normally be within an IR. I also realize that this may only end with "ballpark" results but all in all, it seems much more organic and the "amp in the room" vibe is instant.

From one rabbit hole to the next.

A couple things to note: The response curves they publish are on an infinite baffle (a physically impossible but theoretically helpful setup to remove factors like the size and shape of the cab from a comparison of pure speaker designs). What this means for you is that just setting up your EQ curve to match the posted frequency response won't match that speaker inside a cabinet, just that speaker mounted to a theoretical infinite plain, or mounting it directly in a large wall rather than inside a cabinet.

Another is that your FRFR speakers won't quite replicate the way a guitar speaker is directional since they're designed to sound even despite where you're sitting. Guitar speakers roll off a lot of highs when you're off-axis, and that you won't quite be able to get right.

But by all means, simulating a speaker instead of a close Mic'd speaker is a pretty justifiable goal, since the mic (or reverse speaker if you will) changes the sound quite a bit itself.
 
A couple things to note: The response curves they publish are on an infinite baffle (a physically impossible but theoretically helpful setup to remove factors like the size and shape of the cab from a comparison of pure speaker designs). What this means for you is that just setting up your EQ curve to match the posted frequency response won't match that speaker inside a cabinet, just that speaker mounted to a theoretical infinite plain, or mounting it directly in a large wall rather than inside a cabinet.

Another is that your FRFR speakers won't quite replicate the way a guitar speaker is directional since they're designed to sound even despite where you're sitting. Guitar speakers roll off a lot of highs when you're off-axis, and that you won't quite be able to get right.

But by all means, simulating a speaker instead of a close Mic'd speaker is a pretty justifiable goal, since the mic (or reverse speaker if you will) changes the sound quite a bit itself.
Great points! I was considering the posted freq response from any given manufacturer would get me in the right direction, but honestly, after using the Filter block and EQ, I began tweaking by ear and forgetting what the speaker "should" sound like. I'm just amazed at how much better the Filter block sounded compared to an IR. I hate the hunt for IRs that fit my tone.
 
You can also still use an IR block but crank smoothing way up to get a more EQ like behavior. That way you can still try different IRs to get some different flavors and use the other parts of the IR block.
 
I’ve personally never had an issue or missed any “amp in the room” sound. A major component of that sound is volume, with your sound bouncing off of anything for that spatial feeling. And in tests people do leave that part out, wanting the “amp in a room” 3D feeling out of headphones (or even in one side only headphone in one case).

A cool concept either way.
I’ve thought the Axe FX sounded the most like amp in the room of any other unit I’ve had. But there’s still more of a “this is how it sounds recorded” thing.
 
I’ve thought the Axe FX sounded the most like amp in the room of any other unit I’ve had. But there’s still more of a “this is how it sounds recorded” thing.
Agreed. I think the Axe III sounds great through FR speakers especially when played loud.
 
Amp in the room experience is a hard phenomenon to replicate in a recording, much less with a modeler.

I’m generally very happy with my FRFR results, as the Axe can very credibly replicate an entire signal chain up to the recording medium of your choice. Given all the flexibility inherent to Axe architecture, massive control over parameters, some not even possible in a studio, and the lack of noise and grounding problems means it’s actually superior to a studio signal chain.

However, one thing I find myself missing about standing near my favorite modded JCM800 50w into a 4x12, is a certain kind of presence or high end splatter which seems omni directional. It’s hard to describe except to say that it’s a kind of high end glare which has a density that seems to surround the listener. I don’t think it’s any kind of drastic speaker distortion as it happens even with high wattage speakers.

My suspicion is this has something to do with the loose damping of most tube amps, which creates a high frequency wave front that has a psychoacoustic effect nearly impossible to capture with a mic. If I’m right, then it’s outside the capability of any modeler to recreate this favorite aspect of the amp in the room experience.

Anybody else know the phenomenon I’m describing? If so have you had any luck recording it or recreating it the Axe?
 
Personally, I love my tube amp and I also love my AxeFX, I often play them together.
I'm not too caught up in the 'Amp in the room' debate. The audience loves the mic'd sound, or more accurately stated 'doesn't give a rats arse' as long as it sounds good to them.
If I want to revel in self indulgence and listen to 'Amp in the room', I'll go home and plug into my tube amp.
 
Amp in the room experience is a hard phenomenon to replicate in a recording, much less with a modeler.

I’m generally very happy with my FRFR results, as the Axe can very credibly replicate an entire signal chain up to the recording medium of your choice. Given all the flexibility inherent to Axe architecture, massive control over parameters, some not even possible in a studio, and the lack of noise and grounding problems means it’s actually superior to a studio signal chain.

However, one thing I find myself missing about standing near my favorite modded JCM800 50w into a 4x12, is a certain kind of presence or high end splatter which seems omni directional. It’s hard to describe except to say that it’s a kind of high end glare which has a density that seems to surround the listener. I don’t think it’s any kind of drastic speaker distortion as it happens even with high wattage speakers.

My suspicion is this has something to do with the loose damping of most tube amps, which creates a high frequency wave front that has a psychoacoustic effect nearly impossible to capture with a mic. If I’m right, then it’s outside the capability of any modeler to recreate this favorite aspect of the amp in the room experience.

Anybody else know the phenomenon I’m describing? If so have you had any luck recording it or recreating it the Axe?
use a real cab and you get the qualities that a cab's speaker configuration puts out. a PA speaker or headphones don't emit sound physically like a guitar cab does.
 
use a real cab and you get the qualities that a cab's speaker configuration puts out. a PA speaker or headphones don't emit sound physically like a guitar cab does.

All true, but my point in describing the phenomenon is to see if others have a similar observation and whether anyone thinks there is a way to replicate it with the Axe....
 
Anybody else know the phenomenon I’m describing? If so have you had any luck recording it or recreating it the Axe?
I believe that is the experience I had when using the Filter block, rather than an IR. There is a presence and liveliness that I wasn't getting from the cab sim. The IR has a preamp and mic baked into it. Regardless of how good the IR is, it will always be a simulation. Maybe I have to play around with the Preamp section of the Speaker block?

Honestly, by using the Filter block, I think I've defeated the point of my FR cabs and basically turned them into a standard guitar speaker...LOL.
The upside is, by inserting an EQ after the Filter, I can shape the tone more to my liking and vary it for any given Amp model I'm using. I think the downside, for me, is that this method doesn't work as good when running direct. I still use IRs when recording or just playing through my DAW into studio monitors.
 
I believe that is the experience I had when using the Filter block, rather than an IR. There is a presence and liveliness that I wasn't getting from the cab sim. The IR has a preamp and mic baked into it. Regardless of how good the IR is, it will always be a simulation. Maybe I have to play around with the Preamp section of the Speaker block?

Honestly, by using the Filter block, I think I've defeated the point of my FR cabs and basically turned them into a standard guitar speaker...LOL.
The upside is, by inserting an EQ after the Filter, I can shape the tone more to my liking and vary it for any given Amp model I'm using. I think the downside, for me, is that this method doesn't work as good when running direct. I still use IRs when recording or just playing through my DAW into studio monitors.

Thanks for the details, I will try your approach.

I’m enjoying the FRFR approach a lot. I’ve always used digital stereo effects and struggled to get all the detail when I had my tube front end, Mesa 2/90’s and 4x12s. With the Axe FRFR setup I’ve got all the clarity, detail and control I could ask for and it records very well. I’m using the Axe with my Neumann KH310A’s, which I bought previously for mixing.

I’m moving towards ditching my 4x12’s and Matrix power amp and getting some high powered wedges and doing FRFR live. The true test will be feedback and sustain at the kind of volume I have with the 4x12’s. Which is why I posed the question earlier about the high end “splatter” which I believe is crucial to more complex, reactive feedback and sustain.

Anybody playing through powered wedges like the Meyers with a high gain sound? Any tricks for getting proper feedback? I know Metallica use the Axe with Meyers, but last I heard Hetfield still had a 4x12 and a Mesa 2/90 onstage for feedback. So maybe FRFR will always have this limitation?
 
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Try this:
Make a patch with no cab block.
After the amp put a Filter block. Reset to make sure all parameters are at default values.
Set the type to Lowpass.
Set the Order to 4th.
Set the Freq to ~5000.
Set the High Cut Freq to ~5000.

Adjust the Freq and High Cut Freq to taste. For more aggressive tones increase both to 6000 or so. For warmer tones decrease both to 4000 or so.

Now, to add some "character" put a Graphic EQ or Parametric EQ block after (or before) the Filter block. Boost 125 Hz a little. Play around with some of the midrange and upper midrange bands to change the character of the tone. This is what I used:
31: 0.0
63 Hz: 0.6
125 Hz: 4.57
250 Hz: 0.25
500: 0.0
1K: -5.0
2K: -2.27
4K: 1.95
8K: -1.0
16K: -5.77

The reasoning behind this is that there is no such thing as a "flat" speaker. All speakers, even really expensive monitors have peaks and dips in the response. That's why they all sound different. The primary thing a guitar speaker does is roll off the highs aggressively at somewhere between 4K and 6K Hz. The Filter block replicates the rolloff but lets the natural response of the speaker come through.

I've been playing with this again on my FM3 and matched (well, pretty close) the response of my main/production IR which is a synthetic/generated IR.

My generated IR is roughly based on the response of the "TV Cab Mix" stock IR but tweaked a bit for my use.

The "Filter" settings above are the same; the GEQ settings I've dialed in:

31: -4.43
63 Hz: -1.27
125 Hz: 3.58
250 Hz: 0.00
500: 0.75
1K: -3.25
2K: -1.00
4K: 0.75
8K: -0.25
16K: -1.25

Exploring alternate cab-sims is proving to be interesting and a lot of fun....:cool:
 
I have a Quilter Micropro HD and have been using it to amplify my FM3. After reading this thread, I disabled the cab block globally and used the FM3 global EQ on out 1 to tweak the coloring.

The speaker in the Quilter is a neo bass guitar speaker and rolls off the highs and lows similar to guitar speaker but the rest of the range is fairly flat.

So my thinking is that I don't need the filter block as my speaker is providing the roll off and the EQ can be the global one instead of adding an EQ block to each preset.

If anyone thinks there are flaws in this strategy, let me know. So far I am liking what I am hearing. Oh the EQ tweaks I have started with are the ones that Cliff started this thread with.
 
Try this:
Make a patch with no cab block.
After the amp put a Filter block. Reset to make sure all parameters are at default values.
Set the type to Lowpass.
Set the Order to 4th.
Set the Freq to ~5000.
Set the High Cut Freq to ~5000.

Adjust the Freq and High Cut Freq to taste. For more aggressive tones increase both to 6000 or so. For warmer tones decrease both to 4000 or so.

Now, to add some "character" put a Graphic EQ or Parametric EQ block after (or before) the Filter block. Boost 125 Hz a little. Play around with some of the midrange and upper midrange bands to change the character of the tone. This is what I used:
31: 0.0
63 Hz: 0.6
125 Hz: 4.57
250 Hz: 0.25
500: 0.0
1K: -5.0
2K: -2.27
4K: 1.95
8K: -1.0
16K: -5.77

The reasoning behind this is that there is no such thing as a "flat" speaker. All speakers, even really expensive monitors have peaks and dips in the response. That's why they all sound different. The primary thing a guitar speaker does is roll off the highs aggressively at somewhere between 4K and 6K Hz. The Filter block replicates the rolloff but lets the natural response of the speaker come through.

I just tried your exact settings with the JP2C and it sounds amazing! I think all l I need to do is bring the 125 Hz down a little when jamming with the band. I'll try it at rehearsal tonight!

Should an IR still be used for front of house?
 
I also tried to do this experiment...
Test start at 05:56.


Roby, this sounded really good...and close !!! I guess this is so there is no mic capture, reverb from room ? A direct AMP ?
Can FAS make a Block that accomplishes this in one swoop ?
 
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