Tone versus Feel. The real amp in the room.

Hi all,
Loads of talk about the difference between the mic’d sound of the Axe FX III versus playing the amp in the room and why that sounds different. I am OK with the sound differences and appreciate both but I think the gap could be lowered.

The issue for me lies in the tactile feel of playing an amp versus the Axe. Certainly I grant that part of it is due to different SPL levels but it is more than that for me. Even at low levels, I get a “connected” feel or “feedback feel” from my traditional amps and even from my non-traditional amps like the Yamaha HR-100HD that seems to be missing in my Axe FX to studio monitor setup.

This is not to say that the Axe sounds bad but rather than that I’d like to feel that connection.

Is that part of my ignorance on advanced amp settings like sag, MV, compression, etc? Or is my hope unrealistic? In many ways I am satisfied with the Axe but I would love to have a single parameter that varied how much feel or amp connection the Axe displayed. Not trying to open an old can of worms... just seeking to understand how best to get there.
 
I think you have to move some air to get the "amp in the room" effect...so I doubt it is possible with studio monitors.

I am finding that with a couple of FRFR's (Laney IRT-X and a Headrush 108) I can move enough air to sound and feel much like my Archon 25 tube amp ...and all three in a modified W/D/W setup is pretty righteous, close to having a stack behind you.

The HR actually moves a fair bit of air for it's puny size.
 
it's almost literally the physical speaker which creates part of the tone. it's just a more "direct" thing. you hear the speaker that creates the tone directly. not a mic on that speaker then through another speaker.

pretty sure that's it. the "in the room" sensation can be felt with an FRFR speaker (with modeled amp and cab going through it) turned up so that it bounces off the walls in the room you're physically in at that moment.

but people miss that "direct" sensation of the guitar speaker producing the tone, all the frequencies that spill out of it, and the sensation of physically moving your head/ears around - even just slightly while standing relatively still. that changes what the speaker sounds like, or rather your perception of it changes. compare that to an "image" of a mic placed on one spot on a speaker - that's all you'll hear even if you move your head around.

i think people who have never played a real amp don't experience this need. if you're used to something - as with anything in life - you can notice its absence and desire it.

as mentioned in many threads, the solution is simply to use the Axe through a real speaker cab. that real speaker cab's speaker will create part of the tone, and you'll have exactly what you want. trade-off being that you don't have the lower volume and speaker-changing capabilities anymore. it's physics. it's like asking gravity to not work as well while you're on stage or something like that. it just can't be.
 
I think you have to move some air to get the "amp in the room" effect...so I doubt it is possible with studio monitors.

I am finding that with a couple of FRFR's (Laney IRT-X and a Headrush 108) I can move enough air to sound and feel much like my Archon 25 tube amp ...and all three in a modified W/D/W setup is pretty righteous, close to having a stack behind you.

The HR actually moves a fair bit of air for it's puny size.
So, a HeadRush 108 might get me there but only if pushed? I don’t need to push my regular cabs to get feel.
 
it's almost literally the physical speaker which creates part of the tone. it's just a more "direct" thing. you hear the speaker that creates the tone directly. not a mic on that speaker then through another speaker.

pretty sure that's it. the "in the room" sensation can be felt with an FRFR speaker (with modeled amp and cab going through it) turned up so that it bounces off the walls in the room you're physically in at that moment.

but people miss that "direct" sensation of the guitar speaker producing the tone, all the frequencies that spill out of it, and the sensation of physically moving your head/ears around - even just slightly while standing relatively still. that changes what the speaker sounds like, or rather your perception of it changes. compare that to an "image" of a mic placed on one spot on a speaker - that's all you'll hear even if you move your head around.

i think people who have never played a real amp don't experience this need. if you're used to something - as with anything in life - you can notice its absence and desire it.

as mentioned in many threads, the solution is simply to use the Axe through a real speaker cab. that real speaker cab's speaker will create part of the tone, and you'll have exactly what you want. trade-off being that you don't have the lower volume and speaker-changing capabilities anymore. it's physics. it's like asking gravity to not work as well while you're on stage or something like that. it just can't be.
Thanks Chris. It”s not really a position of my head or ears... I head bang occasionally. Rather it is the feel I get from the guitar that it is physically/acoustically connected to the amp and what I play reflects that. I am beginning to think it is about high SPL interacting with the strings but I get that on more traditional solutions at a very low level. It may be physics but then again tube tone and speaker emulation is based on physics,

I’d like to see a “cathode follower “ breakthrough on this element. If anyone can pull it off, Cliff can.

One can dream right?
 
Thanks Chris. It”s not really a position of my head or ears... I head bang occasionally. Rather it is the feel I get from the guitar that it is physically/acoustically connected to the amp and what I play reflects that. I am beginning to think it is about high SPL interacting with the strings but I get that on more traditional solutions at a very low level. It may be physics but then again tube tone and speaker emulation is based on physics,

I’d like to see a “cathode follower “ breakthrough on this element. If anyone can pull it off, Cliff can.

One can dream right?

Mic up a real cab in another room, route the output to a set of monitors in a control room and the experience will be the same as when playing the Axe-Fx through monitors. As mentioned, if you like the amp in the room experience, play the Axe through a real cab.
 
it is how your ears react to and perceive that speaker which is creating the tone in real-time. rather than a mic on one specific spot on a speaker that doesn't change (IRs).
If true, then an IR that mimics my head position recorded binaurally should sound exactly similar right?
 
So, a HeadRush 108 might get me there but only if pushed? I don’t need to push my regular cabs to get feel.

I don't need to push my HR to get feel either, but the more you push it the closer it sounds to an amp in my opinion and I don't think studio monitors can do that.
Also like Chris said it is perception by the perceiver...so in my mind it's... whatever is true for you applies.
 
Mic up a real cab in another room, route the output to a set of monitors in a control room and the experience will be the same as when playing the Axe-Fx through monitors. As mentioned, if you like the amp in the room experience, play the Axe through a real cab.
But according to Chris if my head isn’t positioned exactly how could it possibly sound the same as a cab in the room?

Playing a traditional amp isn’t rocket science. It has a feel and sound that follows me no matter where I roam and play.

Sure, the high end may vary when I am off axis but the feel does not. I think that sort of interaction can be modeled.
 
But according to Chris if my head isn’t positioned exactly how could it possibly sound the same as a cab in the room?
Because you mic’d it at a single position and are listening only to that single point through another set of speakers. That is exactly what the Axe is doing with IRs. So it would match exactly.

If true, then an IR that mimics my head position recorded binaurally should sound exactly similar right?
How can it possibly mimic your ears in relation to a speaker cab? You’d have to have hundreds or maybe thousands of points of data and some way to indicate where your head is in relation to the speaker, distance, position, etc.

You’re missing the point that your head isn’t exactly still, while a mic recorded at a single position is (an IR). That is the sensation many people are missing - slight movements of your head/ears which makes the perceived speaker sound different, also incorporating the sound bouncing off surrounding walls which also changes as you move slightly or a lot.

The guitar speaker is actively creating a portion of the tone, which is why moving your head with that is different than moving your head around with a speaker playing a single mic position (IR).

It’s why listening to a recorded guitar on an album generally sounds exactly the same if you move around the room vs playing a real guitar amp and moving around the same room. The recording captured a single position (or mixed single positions) which doesn’t change ever because it’s recorded. The real guitar amp is actively creating a part of the tone and where you listen from changes the tone drastically.

If the real guitar cab listening position didn’t change so drastically, you could point a mic anywhere on the cab and it would sound the same.

Yet we know millimeters can make the difference between good and bad tone. That’s exactly what your head/ear position is doing in real time, which people don’t realize.
 
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Because you mic’d it at a single position and are listening only to that single point through another set of speakers. That is exactly what the Axe is doing with IRs. So it would match exactly.


How can it possibly mimic your ears in relation to a speaker cab? You’d have to have hundreds or maybe thousands of points of data and some way to indicate where your head is in relation to the speaker, distance, position, etc.

You’re missing the point that your head isn’t exactly still, while a mic recorded at a single position is (an IR). That is the sensation many people are missing - slight movements of your head/ears which makes the perceived speaker sound different, also incorporating the sound bouncing off surrounding walls which also changes as you move slightly or a lot.

The guitar speaker is actively creating a portion of the tone, which is why moving your head with that is different than moving your head around with a speaker playing a single mic position (IR).
How would headphones not solve all of this if it position and axis were the root cause?

They can”t because what I am describing goes beyond what you are trying to.
 
But according to Chris if my head isn’t positioned exactly how could it possibly sound the same as a cab in the room?

Playing a traditional amp isn’t rocket science. It has a feel and sound that follows me no matter where I roam and play.

Sure, the high end may vary when I am off axis but the feel does not. I think that sort of interaction can be modeled.

I didn't make that point and can't answer for chris. Like I said, if you mic up a real cab in another room and route the output to a set of monitors in a control room, the experience is identical to playing the Axe-Fx through monitors. If you want to "get there", simply hook the Axe up to a real cab. Trying to replicate the amp in the room experience via IR's through monitors is fighting an uphill battle.
 
How would headphones not solve all of this if it position and axis were the root cause?
You keep disregarding listening position relative to the guitar speaker.

Listening to a real amp, your head is not perfectly 100% still. Please read my previous post again.
 
You keep disregarding listening position relative to the guitar speaker.

Listening to a real amp, your head is not perfectly 100% still. Please read my previous post again.
Head position and stillness has nothing to do with what I am talking about. If it did a properly captured IR heard through headphones would capture the moment. It does not. Please read my previous post about the experience following me when I play and roam about when playing through an amp.

I get that you have a theory. My experiences tell me something else altogether.
 
Head position and stillness has nothing to do with what I am talking about. If it did a properly captured IR heard through headphones would capture the moment. It does not.
You sorta just proved my point. Think about it.

You keep thinking I’m saying “staying still is the goal.” I’m not saying that, I’m saying the opposite.

Staying still is what makes an IR not sound like a real guitar cab.

I’ve repeated myself several times so I’m not going to type it again. But what you’ve just said agrees with the point I’m making.
 
You sorta just proved my point. Think about it.

You keep thinking I’m saying “staying still is the goal.” I’m not saying that, I’m saying the opposite.

Staying still is what makes an IR not sound like a real guitar cab.

I’ve repeated myself several times so I’m not going to type it again. But what you’ve just said agrees with the point I’m making.
So if I move I can’t expect a similar experience? If I don”t I can’t either?

Bingo! That is what is missing from the Axe FX. The lowest of my real amps offers that.

You just acknowledged it.
 
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The human auditory system behaves in some rather unique and non-linear ways with perception of frequency, intensity and even phase. It’s very difficult to emulate with a mic capture in the same way no computer (to date) can emulate the human brain.

The auditory system can be fooled though at times, with manipulation of pitch, phase, and intensity causing the listener to perceive interaural differences between the ears which the listener will associate with the source of a sound moving in space, even when it’s from two stationary speakers; pseudo surround sound processing.

Point is, your not going to capture with a mic the same perception your ears will, especially with regards to sound in a closed acoustic space

But, who cares really ? What is the point of “amp in room”?

Modeler or no modeler, amp in recording studio, amp on outdoor stage, amp in arena, amp in basement et al, sounds different than amp in room.

Sure most everyone started out with amp in bedroom, but then you record and it sounds different, you play gigs and it sounds different. Doesn’t sound or feel like playing by yourself in your room any more, but seemingly plenty of successful artist got over it and learned to play with the sound of a mic’d amps, IEM’s etc for decades now, and modelers really aren’t that different or big of departure.

Amp or modeler, if joe guitar hero can be told his amp is going under the stage and he’s being mic’d, hearing himself in the monitors, and can still tour, then why can’t the rest of us ?

I honestly think amp in room is kind of a crutch or excuse at times. Don’t sound good on the recording ? Well it’s not the guitarist fault, if you heard how it sounded in the room you’d think different ?

Sound bad in a band mix on stage ? Not the players fault, their tone and playing sounds amazing at home, in the room, know what I mean?


Amp in room is basically singing in the shower....
 
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The human auditory system behaves in some rather unique and non-linear ways with perception of frequency, intensity and even phase. It’s very difficult to emulate with a mic capture in the same way no computer (to date) can emulate the human brain.

The auditory system can be fooled though at times, with manipulation of pitch, phase, and intensity causing the listener to perceive interaural differences between the ears which the listener will associate with the source of a sound moving in space, even when it’s from two stationary speakers; pseudo surround sound processing.

Point is, your not going to capture with a mic the same perception your ears will, especially with regards to sound in a closed acoustic space

But, who cares really ? What is the point of “amp in room”?

Modeler or no modeler, amp in recording studio, amp on outdoor stage, amp in arena, amp in basement et al, sounds different than amp in room.

Sure most everyone started out with amp in bedroom, but then you record and it sounds different, you play gigs and it sounds different. Doesn’t sound or feel like playing by yourself in your room any more, but seemingly plenty of successful artist got over it and learned to play with the sound of a mic’d amps, IEM’s etc for decades now, and modelers really aren’t that different or big of departure.

Amp or modeler, if joe guitar hero can be told his amp is going under the stage and he’s being mic’d, hearing himself in the monitors, and can still tour, then why can’t the rest of us ?

I honestly think amp in room is kind of a crutch or excuse at times. Don’t sound good on the recording ? Well it’s not the guitarist fault, if you heard how it sounded in the room you’d think different ?

Sound bad in a band mix on stage ? Not the players fault, their tone and playing sounds amazing at home, in the room, know what I mean?


Amp in room is basically singing in the shower....
Amp in the room is an experience not a corollary to the recorded capture of it. Do you think Jimi ran by listening to his recorded tracks? Or do you think his recorded tracks *tried* to capture what he felt and did in the moment?
Surely all can agree there is a difference. Why not try to emulate it? We have come so far... is that not the next step?
 
Amp in the room is an experience not a corollary to the recorded capture of it. Do you think Jimi ran by listening to his recorded tracks? Or do you think his recorded tracks *tried* to capture what he felt and did in the moment?
Surely all can agree there is a difference. Why not try to emulate it? We have come so far... is that not the next step?

That's what Line 6 is attempting to do with the PowerCab, as is Kemper with the Kemper Kab.
 
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