AFIII To All The Pundits

[Rex]

Reflections are controlled in studio live rooms, but they rarely go for a completely "dead" room.

 

[chris]

recording studios are designed with these things in mind. bedrooms typically aren't

 

[unix-guy]

You know in the studios they put carpet on the walls?
I guess that's to eliminate some room reflections. That's their target.
Am I wrong?

Many mixes also have "room" mics in them to ADD more of the room into the overall guitar sound.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Anecohic Chamber or GTFO...
https://g.co/kgs/MFebQ8

Seriously though for arguments sake can we just assume that anything recorded in the physical world is going to have some “environmental” artifacts.

We had a nice anecohic chamber at the university I did grad school at. I wish I would have brought an amp into it to play “amp in room” minus the room lol.

 

[Rex]

We had a nice anecohic chamber at the university I did grad school at.

There's an oppressive experience, eh? The silence almost feels like pressure.

 

[666was999]

If we say we want some room in the IR for recordings/ headphone use, because that's just how recordings with real amps are, and we say we don't want room for our FRFR systems (to avoid having the room twice),
then we have a problem when playing in the rehearse/ on stage because we'd need different IRs for our monitors (without room sound) and the PA signal (with room sound).

 

[2112]

If we say we want some room in the IR for recordings/ headphone use, because that's just how recordings with real amps are, and we say we don't want room for our FRFR systems (to avoid having the room twice),
then we have a problem when playing in the rehearse/ on stage because we'd need different IRs for our monitors (without room sound) and the PA signal (with room sound).

Luckily space for 500 presets and thousands of IR's eliminate that problem.

 

[unix-guy]

If we say we want some room in the IR for recordings/ headphone use, because that's just how recordings with real amps are, and we say we don't want room for our FRFR systems (to avoid having the room twice),
then we have a problem when playing in the rehearse/ on stage because we'd need different IRs for our monitors (without room sound) and the PA signal (with room sound).

That's why people use reverb... And typically more with in ears and headphones. They are "creating a room".

 

[666was999]

Luckily space for 500 presets and thousands of IR's eliminate that problem.

No, the number of presets and IR don't matters.
If one preset needs to produce two sounds for two different output systems in oraralkel more presets and IR will not help.
You'd need always two amps and two cab blocks in all presets, one for the PA and one for your FRFR monitor.

 

[666was999]

That's why people use reverb... And typically more with in ears and headphones. They are "creating a room".

Yes. That's what I do live. With my mini mixer for the in-ear system I add the same room for my guitar and for the band mix, so I put them both in the same artificial room.

 

[unix-guy]

No, the number of presets and IR don't matters.
If one preset needs to produce two sounds for two different output systems in oraralkel more presets and IR will not help.
You'd need always two amps and two cab blocks in all presets, one for the PA and one for your FRFR monitor.

You don't 2 amps or 2 cabs...

Split your signal to two outputs and add a reverb on the one going to your IEMs.

But I agree, more presets and more IRs doesn't address this issue.

 

[2112]

I misunderstood that you wanted to run the signal on parallel. As mentioned, split your signal after the amp and use different IR's or run reverb. The issue there isn't the fault of the IR, it's the monitoring method. If you mic'd an amp you'd have the same issues of "do I include some room sound in my ears mix".

 

[shatteredsquare]

2)reverb, IRs, filters and EQs are all Linear Time Invariant, this means that the order you place them in the chain doesn't matter, the result will be identical if you place a reverb before or after a cab.

Filters and EQs ok, but I don't think that works with reverberation, reverberation (not just delay) adds overtones and harmonic content. That's what I'm getting at with the missing link that cab room does for me, if the IR is a static filter, then there's no reverberation going on, whereas a recording, that 180 ms of fundamental information will not be just filtering, but it's reverberating, mixing, getting summed down to mono at the mic, but always moving around. The IR is like a backwards picture of that, the time domain belongs in front of the mic. It's the only thing right now that lets me tell one from another.

If you run a reverb unit after a cab you'll get so much high end diffusion information, way upwards of what the cab put out, if you run the reverb before the cab, all that high end gets filtered by the top end limit of the cab (I actually prefer it that way, it sounds like when you run wet effects through the actual 4x12).

A cab IR is just a drastic band pass filter less a little time domain, you can get 80% of the way to a good cab sound with just a high pass shelf and a low pass shelf.

Am I wrong?

 

[Rex]

... reverberation (not just delay) adds overtones and harmonic content.

It doesn't, though.

Reverb is essentially a complex blend of delays and EQ, both of which are linear and time-invariant (LTI). So they can be placed anywhere in relation to other LTI networks (like cabs) without changing the sound.

That's what I'm getting at with the missing link that cab room does for me, if the IR is a static filter, then there's no reverberation going on, whereas a recording, that 180 ms of fundamental information will not be just filtering, but it's reverberating, mixing, getting summed down to mono at the mic, but always moving around.

Sorry, I have no idea what you said there.

...the time domain belongs in front of the mic.

Any signal can be represented in the time domain or the frequency domain, no matter where it is in the signal path. It's still the same signal.

If you run a reverb unit after a cab you'll get so much high end diffusion information, way upwards of what the cab put out...

Reverb doesn't generate any high-end signal that's not already there.

A cab IR is just a drastic band pass filter less a little time domain...

IRs are much more than that. You just described a completely flat response. If that were true, all cabs would sound alike.

...you can get 80% of the way to a good cab sound with just a high pass shelf and a low pass shelf.

80% of a good cab sound is still less than a good cab sound. In any case, shelving would leave an undesirable amount of high end and low end.

 

[shatteredsquare]

I'm putting on a helmet next time I come in here

 

[Rex]

My head hurts, too.

 

[DLC86]

Filters and EQs ok, but I don't think that works with reverberation, reverberation (not just delay) adds overtones and harmonic content. That's what I'm getting at with the missing link that cab room does for me, if the IR is a static filter, then there's no reverberation going on, whereas a recording, that 180 ms of fundamental information will not be just filtering, but it's reverberating, mixing, getting summed down to mono at the mic, but always moving around. The IR is like a backwards picture of that, the time domain belongs in front of the mic. It's the only thing right now that lets me tell one from another.

If you run a reverb unit after a cab you'll get so much high end diffusion information, way upwards of what the cab put out, if you run the reverb before the cab, all that high end gets filtered by the top end limit of the cab (I actually prefer it that way, it sounds like when you run wet effects through the actual 4x12).

A cab IR is just a drastic band pass filter less a little time domain, you can get 80% of the way to a good cab sound with just a high pass shelf and a low pass shelf.

Am I wrong?

What @Rex said.
Reverberation on its own doesn't add overtones and harmonics, it can give you that impression cuz it can emphasize some frequencies but it can't create some that are not in the original signal.
If you think about it, natural reverb is just a combination of various reflections of the original sound reaching your ear or mic from various points of the surroundings at different times, angles and amplitudes.

 

[bradlake]

Me like pretty soundz.

 

[hippietim]

What @Rex said.
Reverberation on its own doesn't add overtones and harmonics, it can give you that impression cuz it can emphasize some frequencies but it can't create some that are not in the original signal.
If you think about it, natural reverb is just a combination of various reflections of the original sound reaching your ear or mic from various points of the surroundings at different times, angles and amplitudes.

Reverb may not add overtones and harmonics, but spring reverb can add cheese.

 

[FractalAudio]

Am I wrong?

Yes