Why not only Presets? (Please stay calm - and first read)

[Liquid22]

Hi everyone!

I don't know how big this is gonna be.

But FIRST: This is no complaint!!! I liked every single one of my Axes and still do. 100% satisfied because I know I have to adapt to the product and not the product to me. Anything on top is a gift from Fractal.

This is only to get a explanation, a clarification, so that I can let the topic go and accept it better. But finally, also to find a way to handle the Axe III better.

As you may already read in some of my other posts, I really struggle to save, copy, past my sounds out of PRESET were they are entangled in SCENES and CHANNELS. And I know, a lot of you don’t know that problem.

Here it comes and I will explain:
Question: Is the only reason why SCENES and CHANNELS exist in a PRESET, because Cliff was searching for a way to get rid of the millisecond sound gap when switching presets?

Here is my mindset:
In a PRESET your building your sound, but if you want to have the ability to modify it, you can save some modification in SCENES. Restriction: you only can save states of the involved Blocks and not different tweaks.

If you want to save different tweaks you have to use ether CHANNELS of the block or another Block of the same type. Restriction: you are limited in number of CHANNELS or Blocks (same type).

Because of this setting you can put allot of different Amps, Cabs, Effects inside of only one Preset. That is great. You’re saving Preset-Slots (I remember Cliff highlighting that when the new Axe III came out and the question up: ”Why “only” 512 Preset-Slots?”)

Here’s the point why I can’t let go that topic:
Inside a PRESET: when I like a specific guitar tone, based on specific setting of CHANNELS of different blocks, maybe captured in a specific SCENE, then I don’t know how to grab just that sound easily and put it in a new PRESET so that I can work further on it. (You might compare the situation to a box inside of a box in a box, where it’s difficult to take something out, because it’s all connected to each other.)

[Remember I don’t want to complaint. Don’t be offended, our Axe III is great]

[ read on below ]

 

[Liquid22]

[Remember I don’t want to complaint. Don’t be offended, our Axe III is great]

So after all of that, to me it seems, that it would be a lot easier to have only PRESETS (like in old ULTRA days). In those days you liked a PREESET after a few tweaks and you just made a new PRESET out of it. Of course, with the Axe III today you would instantly need more than 512 preset-slots to keep up to the actual capacity of different sounds hidden in all those SCENES of the PRESETS today. That’s the reason why I’m not just ignoring SCENES and CHANNELS, why I’m not just using Scene 1 and pretending there are only Presets. Fakt is I would struggle with the Number 512.

Although I think, having only Presets you always had direct access to all of your sounds and with the ability to copy them instantly and easy. And you don’t have to think: In what PRESET in what SCENE was that specific sound again?

So the question I carry with me for a long time now is: Did the progress of the Axe and the intention to get rid of the switching gap, “force” Cliff to drift away from the “working only with presets”-Axe ?

Sure you could argue that real Amps and Effects have also CHANNELS and Settings of MIDI-Scenes, but you just can’t copy physical Equipment within a mouse click. So was the intension really just to imitate the handling of real equipment?

“What’s his point?” - Wrapping it up:
To me, on one hand this Topic touches most likely the history of the Axe-Fx. And because the Axe is a part of my live as a musician for many years now, I’m just curious about those mind steps and Cliffs/Fractals thoughts.

On the other hand I’m still searching for a way to manage my sounds and I’m hoping to figure out a more convenient workflow. And also, to understand why on earth is not every one of you struggling with all I described?

So final question to you: What do you think? What are you doing with all that.
To Cliff: Was the millisecond sound gap the “historical booster” for Scenes and Channels?

Thanks for reading
Liquid

 

[unix-guy]

Simple answer to your "issue": don't use scenes or channels.

Dial in all your presets on scene 1 with all your blocks on channel A.

Done.

You can now use presets only with no need to worry about it.

 

[chris]

Scenes turn multiple blocks on and off, and change channels. that's really it. Steve Vai suggested the feature, if i remember correctly.

if you take away the XY or Channel switching part, then it's only turning on/off multiple things at once with one button press - this is a very common practice with analog pedals, using simple a/b or line switchers, or loop/rig pedals. nothing too groundbreaking there.

add the XY and channel part: XY switching was a feature on the Axe-Fx II at launch. it was new to the platform. it was really cool to now have an Amp block in a single preset that could change sounds without having to change entire Presets. the main benefit of that was less presets overall had to be created. for one song, you may have had 5 presets for clean, effects, clean lead, rhythm, high gain lead. multiply that by x amount of songs and you have a ton of presets.

XY switching helped with that a bit, but then we had to click a bunch of buttons to change sounds.

enter Scenes in FW 9. totally new concept which helped us change sounds with one button.

many people describe Scenes as "presets within presets." i personally do not like that description. it's too confusing, and it makes Scenes appear that they stand alone. they do not. a Scene is dependent on the Preset. always.

now that we have the Axe3 with so much more power, Scenes are more powerful due to more blocks and more Channels per block. so we can make Scenes more important because of that, but they are still a function of the Preset.

again. Scenes turn multiple things on/off and change Channels. when i think of it with that simplicity, it's easier to understand why the Preset is really "in charge" of the sound i want.

from there, you need to just copy and paste the channel/blocks you want to build a new Preset that pulls out things from the settings of blocks within different Scenes. by definition, a Scene doesn't know what is in that block - only if it's on/off and what channel.

try to avoid thinking of Scenes as "tones" and more of a functional nature. the Preset is the tone.

 

[grape]

Why can't you personally just stick to presets? 512 is the limit onboard but with a computer, it's infinite.

To save a specific scene... why not just save the whole preset to a new preset and then delete all of the other scenes and move the scene you want to scene 1? No, it's not a one click step but it doesn't take that long. Are you using Axe-Edit?

 

[unix-guy]

Why can't you personally just stick to presets? 512 is the limit onboard but with a computer, it's infinite.

To save a specific scene... why not just save the whole preset to a new preset and then delete all of the other scenes and move the scene you want to scene 1? No, it's not a one click step but it doesn't take that long. Are you using Axe-Edit?

You can't delete scenes...

 

[Liquid22]

Simple answer to your "issue": don't use scenes or channels.

Dial in all your presets on scene 1 with all your blocks on channel A.

Done.

You can now use presets only with no need to worry about it.

Thanks. I know, I wrot a long text, but I explained why that would be not my favorite choice.

 

[unix-guy]

Thanks. I know, I wrot a long text, but I explained why that would be not my favorite choice.

Sorry, I guess I missed that the first time...

I can't imagine why you would realistically need more than 512 presets onboard. As mentioned, you can just use your computer to store as many as you want.

Anyway, I personally love scenes and channels, and the fact that I can make a super kitchen sink preset that I use all night.

 

[Liquid22]

Scenes turn multiple blocks on and off, and change channels. that's really it. Steve Vai suggested the feature, if i remember correctly.

if you take away the XY or Channel switching part, then it's only turning on/off multiple things at once with one button press - this is a very common practice with analog pedals, using simple a/b or line switchers, or loop/rig pedals. nothing too groundbreaking there.

add the XY and channel part: XY switching was a feature on the Axe-Fx II at launch. it was new to the platform. it was really cool to now have an Amp block in a single preset that could change sounds without having to change entire Presets. the main benefit of that was less presets overall had to be created. for one song, you may have had 5 presets for clean, effects, clean lead, rhythm, high gain lead. multiply that by x amount of songs and you have a ton of presets.

XY switching helped with that a bit, but then we had to click a bunch of buttons to change sounds.

enter Scenes in FW 9. totally new concept which helped us change sounds with one button.

many people describe Scenes as "presets within presets." i personally do not like that description. it's too confusing, and it makes Scenes appear that they stand alone. they do not. a Scene is dependent on the Preset. always.

now that we have the Axe3 with so much more power, Scenes are more powerful due to more blocks and more Channels per block. so we can make Scenes more important because of that, but they are still a function of the Preset.

again. Scenes turn multiple things on/off and change Channels. when i think of it with that simplicity, it's easier to understand why the Preset is really "in charge" of the sound i want.

from there, you need to just copy and paste the channel/blocks you want to build a new Preset that pulls out things from the settings of blocks within different Scenes. by definition, a Scene doesn't know what is in that block - only if it's on/off and what channel.

try to avoid thinking of Scenes as "tones" and more of a functional nature. the Preset is the tone.

Thanks Cris, I understand.

But even if the "tone" is in the Preset, doesn't the combination of activated and bypassed blocks finally build this tone? So you can't get one without the other as long as you're building different tones inside of one preset (while switching things differently on and off), right?

 

[chris]

But even if the "tone" is in the Preset, doesn't the combination of activated and bypassed blocks finally build this tone?

sure. but consider your "preset only" situation - let's say you have that preset with all the blocks you want, but only amp and cab are on. now you want a drive pedal, then you want a chorus but no drive pedal, etc.

even in that situation, the Preset dictates the tone. you are manually turning on one thing at a time to get a new tone. so you'd still copy the Preset to duplicate that for a new Preset. the fact that Scenes can do that for you with 1 button press as opposed to multiple doesn't change much.

i think the main thing causing this struggle is that Amp Channels can drastically change the sound, more than "effect blocks" usually can. most people associate the word "preset" with an amp tone. so when the amp tone changes, in their mind, they've "changed presets."

if Scenes complicate this understanding, then i suggest not using them. people use the gear in many different ways, and for some, too many steps down a hierarchy (Preset > Scene > Channel) doesn't work. and that's fine. just use Presets. it's allowed.

 

[bshaw92]

Although I think, having only Presets you always had direct access to all of your sounds and with the ability to copy them instantly and easy. And you don’t have to think: In what PRESET in what SCENE was that specific sound again?

I'm with you somewhat on using presets and channels, but the options make the alternate choices infinite. You can do just presets and live a very fulfilled life. I use presets with channels and have a bunch of extra space. But, it does everything I need and then some. It can definitely get very overwhelming if you over think the possibilities. Make it as simple as you want. There are no rules only options.

 

[Liquid22]

I can't imagine why you would realistically need more than 512 presets onboard. As mentioned, you can just use your computer to store as many as you want.

I can understand that you're wondering. 1 Million ways to use the Axe.

Computer is not always there - Not only one Band I'm playing in - a lot of songs to play - I like to tweak, safe and compare a lot for a spot on sound - having the factory presets always on board would be nice ...

... but like I said, I will adapt to what is given.

 

[chris]

having the factory presets alwasy on board would be nice

i personally have never understood this - i'm not saying anything is wrong, i just don't understand.

can you briefly describe how the Factory Presets would benefit you in a situation? wouldn't you have to know what they all sound like in general?

 

[grape]

You can't delete scenes...

Right. A Wish for "clear scene" in Axe-Edit is in order.
A workaround is to copy a blank scene to the scene you want to delete but you'd have to have the blank scene to begin with.

 

[Liquid22]

sure. but consider your "preset only" situation - let's say you have that preset with all the blocks you want, but only amp and cab are on. now you want a drive pedal, then you want a chorus but no drive pedal, etc.

even in that situation, the Preset dictates the tone. you are manually turning on one thing at a time to get a new tone. so you'd still copy the Preset to duplicate that for a new Preset. the fact that Scenes can do that for you with 1 button press as opposed to multiple doesn't change much.

i think the main thing causing this struggle is that Amp Channels can drastically change the sound, more than "effect blocks" usually can. most people associate the word "preset" with an amp tone. so when the amp tone changes, in their mind, they've "changed presets."

if Scenes complicate this understanding, then i suggest not using them. people use the gear in many different ways, and for some, too many steps down a hierarchy (Preset > Scene > Channel) doesn't work. and that's fine. just use Presets. it's allowed.

You're right. The hierarchy doesn't quite fit. I don't think I didn't get the concept of all that. Maybe "bshaw92" hit it in some way when saying the posibilities can definitely get very overwhelming.

I want to ask you to understand: In your eyes. If I copy a preset (so two slots). One with Drive on, one with drive off. Both I can switch with only one step, right? What would be the difference compaired to a single preset with scenes doing the same? Is there a advantage for one or another?

 

[Tumatauenga]

Why can't you personally just stick to presets? 512 is the limit onboard but with a computer, it's infinite.

To save a specific scene... why not just save the whole preset to a new preset and then delete all of the other scenes and move the scene you want to scene 1? No, it's not a one click step but it doesn't take that long. Are you using Axe-Edit?

This is exactly what I do. Find a scene in a preset whether it's a factory one or one from @austinbuddy, copy that preset to a new number, copy the scene I like to all other scenes in that preset, delete all the blocks I don't care about, and then start customizing it from there.

 

[grape]

I can understand that you're wondering. 1 Million ways to use the Axe.

Computer is not always there - Not only one Band I'm playing in - a lot of songs to play - I like to tweak, safe and compare a lot for a spot on sound - having the factory presets alwasy on board would be nice ...

... but like I said, I will adapt to what is given.

Without a computer, I'd be lost. Maybe consider having the computer always there. For that level of management, I think it's necessary. For tweaking and saving often, you can't beat Axe-Edit and the snapshot feature.

 

[chris]

If I copy a preset (so two slots). One with Drive on, one with drive off. Both I can switch with only one step, right? What would be the difference compaired to a single preset with scenes doing the same? Is there a advantage for one or another?

one less preset.

 

[Liquid22]

i personally have never understood this - i'm not saying anything is wrong, i just don't understand.

can you briefly describe how the Factory Presets would benefit you in a situation? wouldn't you have to know what they all sound like in general?

I see it like a library of basic tones, where I can build on my final presets. And also for quick access to a variaty of sounds for new ideas. (I don't have my computer with me very often)

 

[unix-guy]

Right. A Wish for "clear scene" in Axe-Edit is in order.
A workaround is to copy a blank scene to the scene you want to delete but you'd have to have the blank scene to begin with.

What does that buy? How would such a thing work? Scenes always exist and always contain all the blocks in the preset. What would a clear actually do?