Guitar Pickups Don't Matter?

I've never really felt a huge difference with new pickups, rather I feel the placebo effect in combination of fresh strings after the pickup switch.

I think I have tried the most common pickups out there and I don't by any means think that all pickups are bad, quite the opposite, I feel like most pickups are really good these days and you're maybe not getting much bang for buck spending hundreds of dollars on pickups (especially boutique premium pickups). I'm intentionally not naming any brands as I don't mean to single companies out.

If your speaking broadly on the subject one could draw the same comparison with IR's. Compare Brand X's 25 watt pre Rola shot with a 57 off axis with Brand Y's. Both brands being known for quality IR's. Probably about as much of a difference as the comparison you made here.

"Where I'm coming from" is pretty clear so there's no reason hiding it. Luckily most people understand the value of IR's and I can make a living out of it but there's one guy out of ten who thinks IR's are too expensive. Really? After getting a $2.5k/$1.5k unit, two $500 monitors, a $2k guitar with $200 pickups... the most effective part of your signal chain is still IR's am I right? :)

I started buying IR packs back in the Ultra days. Then there was a period around Ultra Res where the technique of shooting IR's was advancing and with each new wave there was a noticeable difference. And for $29 to $100+ a pack, it was worth the upgrade to buy the same speaker/cab/mic combo. Now I have a library full of my favorite cab/mic/speaker combos from different authors from different time periods. When I listen to a new pack that features my favorite combo I look at the price and think I'm not getting much bang for my buck. Not because the new Brand X has a crappy product but because it's not much different than what I already have. At that point price is the determining factor if I buy or not.
 
Agree with this.

But I also believe that a good pickup won't make a crap guitar sound great. BETTER, but not great. However (as was said) Isolating any one thing as 'spend your money here' is a nice way to blow cash.

Agree with this as well. I'd rather spend money on something other than a pickup that is similar to one I already have. My problem with pickups is similar to my problem with IRs. Simply too many of them are for sale, and verbal descriptions do not give me enough information to make a decision as to which will work for me. I need to hear them and play through them. This is especially difficult regarding pickups.

And I also believe that a good guitar will not make a crap pickup sound great. You can tell a great guitar or a crap guitar, even an electric, by how it responds unamplified. But a bad pickup (or merely a pickup inappropriate for the intended style) can ruin the amplified tone of a great guitar.
 
Anyone here try going from stock Epiphone pickups to something else? I remember it being an actual large difference in that case when replacing them with pickups sold by Gibson in my buddies LP. Opening up the Epi pups I thought I found the reason as well...the thickest layer of wax goop imaginable covering the bobbins. Those stock Epi pups didn't have a whole lot of output, and I thought that might have been why. Night and day difference with that change

I could hear the difference in pickups in this demo as well just on 13 inch Macbook speakers. My thinking is if it's easy enough to distinguish an audible difference like that it can be worth it for someone to decide on the upgrade despite it not being as huge a difference as a speaker cabinet change. If you actually had to measure the EQ difference just to be able to tell then it would be different

Not to mention the swap in pickups here were already going to have relatively more similar sound as say changing to a super punchy and tight pickup for metal. Even if the ending EQ due to speaker IR would be overall pretty close it just doesn't sound or feel the same when using an alnico II low output pickup to get a modern metal sound
 
I love the conversation here. Has anyone made this kind of A/B comparison clips without changing to a new set of strings? I'd love to hear some. As much as I value people's opinions it's always more reassuring to get to experience the difference. I'm sure you'll hear a much bigger difference when comparing pickups that are a completely different design.

I'd love to point out that I really tried to show the difference in an honest way by even posting the DI signal on my playing. That's where the difference should be really clear. Once you start stacking gain stages and reverb etc. it all gets blurred. I'm not sure if everyone here knows the history behind those Seymour Duncan's but essentially they're made to sound like Slash's (Guns N Roses) guitar pickups from a Les Paul copy that's not even a Gibson.

I don't really understand the comparison between IR's that some guys are making here. Something like "off axis SM57" can mean a hundred different positions leading to a hundred different sounds. Literally one centimeter on an SM57 will give you a bigger tone variation than this pickup switch. I doubt I even have to prove that. Even then we're only talking about one aspect of an IR. What power amp was used? Was the power amp color removed? What speakers were used? How worn were they? All of these add up to a bigger difference than the difference between the pickup switch did in my Gibson pickup switch video. This is exactly the reason why I include all four speakers of a 4x12 in all my Cab Packs because they sound completely different. F.ex. this clip I posted just now from "the same cabinet with the same mic up":



The difference there is that one cab has been toured more so it's starting to sound worn out and vintage. That's another aspect of IR's that's different to pickups.

The argument I was making was simply that let's say you get a JB bridge pickup (highly recommend this pickup by the way and it's good bang for buck!) for around $90 which is the price here in Europe. Imagine the amount of IR's with tonal variety you can get for that price. My point was not to rant about people not valuing IR's as fortunately for me I'm able to make a living because so many people do value IR's. I get that it may come across that way as I'm the IR guy here. I'm simply just pointing it out that when I was starting out I wish someone told me not to spend thousands on guitar pickups and pedals etc. that really don't sound that different from each other. I wish someone told me that cabs are more important than amps so I wouldn't have toured with a Mesa Roadster and a Harley Benton 4x12 cab. :D Once again it's a good time to be grateful that it's the best time to be a guitar gear geek right now.

What sparked me to write about this topic was that I've owned a lot of guitars. So many that I definitely don't remember them all. I used to have 3-4 guitar in rotation all the time for like a decade. Obviously this is all strongly influenced by my personal opinion but I'd like to think that the guitars that I could not sell were somehow more special and better than the ones that I sold. F.ex. I know I've had at least three Ibanez guitars and the only one that stayed longer than 2 months was a JEM 7WH. Anyways I've narrowed it down throughout the 15 years I've been doing this and I just realized that all my guitars have stock pickups in them at the moment. (As I mentioned in the video my Strat has Suhr V60LPs in it and they sound great! Came with is when I bought it used.)

So... guitars/pickups I've had that didn't make the cut include everything from 4 different EBMM JPs to Suhr and several Gibson Les Pauls, I've had three sets of Bare Knuckles and I know many people love them but I never really "got them". I don't really want to say anything bad about them but everything they've been advertised to do was the opposite of what I experienced. Then I talked about guitars with my good buddies Misha and Nolly when they were tracking P3 in DC and as I was trying to tell them they all should be playing PRS guitars and Mark is the only one who understands anything about guitars (I hope you can sense the sarcasm here) Misha said he didn't like PRS pickups at all which for me are the best pickups ever created. This once again brings us back to personal preference and how much things can vary. All I know is, I've never been able to sell a US made PRS. 100% stock all of them yet all sound different even though they have the same pickups in them. The one that I use mostly for tracking has a stop tail and it's got way more output than any other guitar I have at the moment. Once again I strongly believe that the most important parts in a guitar are everything that touches the strings so... the bridge is really important!

So I fully agree (and have experienced) that high quality pickups will not make a bad guitar sound awesome. Maybe if you also change the nut, saddles and bridge you will start to notice bigger improvements.
 
While I think the title of this is far too broad to get to the point mikko's making, I do tend to agree with it in a certain sense. I believe the gains to be had by swapping pickups laterally will net you very little in the end, the comparison between the burstbuckers and duncans here prove that well enough. Changing the construction of the pup however (SC to HB, Alnico to ceramic, etc) is when things get blurry, and rightfully so. I dont think anyone is arguing that here. But honestly is the difference between a dimarzio and a duncan, or a lollar and a fralin, really worth the money youre shelling out? I have a GFS loaded pickguard in my strat with the standard ceramic fare that generally gets assosciated with MIM's or import stuff, cost me 40 bucks shipped, and you know what? My strat still sounds like a strat to me. Ive pondered swapping them out to see what the difference would be but I dont think I'd be getting 2/300 dollars worth of tone over what I already have, and anything i want out of them I can tackle with the multitude of EQ options in the axe anyway. my 2 cents anywho
 
I know one thing, some pickups are noisey. I'll keep using my EMG's(most of mine
are 30 y/o now], and EQ them to my taste. I buy cheap guitars with mojo,
throw EMGs in and and play them.
 
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the bridge is really important

Sure is. Changed the stock bridge on my Ibanez to a Hipshot replacement, and couldn't have been happier. So much more comfortable now when my hand rests over it, and I feel like it helped to keep low string from going sharp as much when using heavy strokes. Last part might be wishful thinking though who knows

It is easy to over emphasize the amount of change pickups will bring, and it's hard to gauge how important the right set is. For sure it doesn't affect the end result as much as a speaker cabinet and mic placement in creating an impulse. I've personally never been happy with pickups I've had from Seymour Duncan though, and being upset at the fundamental beginning of your electric signal can ruin everything else despite having the perfect IR. When you find the right pickup set for you and your style then everything else can fall into place, but from there I would agree that people shouldn't overly worry about swapping one set for another similar sounding one
 
I don't know who sold us guitar players the idea that pickups are the most important part of your guitar tone.

So... people mostly agreed that no one really was saying that- but I'd argue- in one way they are...

You have a guitar... if you change the body- it's not the same guitar, if you change the neck it's a different guitar... so those aside...
You change the strings- not that much of a difference no matter how many people they swear by heavy guages tell me i'm crazy for using 7's and 8's--
You can change a bridge- but it's not practical, in some cases possible- or worth what the guitar is worth in many cases...
What's left? the springs- if they work well- it's not going to be much of a difference- you can change the frets once again- not practical

You can change the nut- which- i do in many many guitars- from tusq to genuine floyd rose- and it is an improvement- more so in tuning and sanity than sound....

You can change your pick- which does a lot of difference-- but overall- you're not doing any of those if you like the guitar- if you have to change everything than the guitar is the problem-

What's left to do in a guitar you like that controls every aspect of the sound? change the pickups

So- in practicality it is the most important part of your sound besides getting a new instrument
-------

A few comments also talk about microphones- Adele is Adele through a $50 mic or a $50,000 signal chain

BUT- no one is going to buy Adele's music if it was recorded with a $15 samson mic

So- getting professional sounds out of professional gear is what it's about...

Plenty of recordings have vintage Fender and Gibson pickups- plenty have newer EMG/Dimarzio/Duncan--

I've been lucky enough to have a great pickup company I've had a great relationship with over the years- and I've got to experiment with many many pickups- and I can't stress the importance of good quality pickups...

Steps to guitar:
1. Set ups
2. Fret dress
3. Pickups

Give me a $2000 strat with shit pickups and a shit setup and frets that cut you like a prison bitch- or an Ibanez RG- forget that- Ibanez GIO with a good set up and good pickups- and that's all I need.

One last note- I literally have 90% of the guitars I have just for the pickups
Or I keep a guitar because I want to have one with those pickups--

ALSO- no matter what they say- A $200 RG with good pickups isn't that much different in sound/tone than a JEM- and I have one that I think bites better than my JEM- so- I can afford to keep a bunch of guitars with a bunch of pickups around for sounds/recording/studio work- because I know what tool I need to get the sound i want for anything- and i know exactly what to grab- and what each is capable of and everything can do- AND- all those guitars cost less than what most of you spend one one guitar.
 
I love the conversation here. Has anyone made this kind of A/B comparison clips without changing to a new set of strings? I'd love to hear some. As much as I value people's opinions it's always more reassuring to get to experience the difference. I'm sure you'll hear a much bigger difference when comparing pickups that are a completely different design.

Earlier this year I swapped a Suhr DSV+ with an old Seymour Duncan 59 PAF Reissue that's been on the shelf since the 80's or 90's. I have another guitar with a similar type PAF in it that has always been the measuring stick for me. After the swap and using the same strings I immediately realized I had made a mistake. The difference was night and day but within the PAF realm. Seems like I did record some clips after hearing the drastic difference. I'll look for them later and post if I did in fact record.

I'd love to point out that I really tried to show the difference in an honest way by even posting the DI signal on my playing. That's where the difference should be really clear. Once you start stacking gain stages and reverb etc. it all gets blurred.

I agree that those two pickups sounded very close so one may ask in this situation, would that little of a difference be worth the cost? Subject to personal opinion of course but I get it. Conversely there are a ton of other pickup comparisons where there are much larger differences such as the one I recently experienced.

I don't really understand the comparison between IR's that some guys are making here. Something like "off axis SM57" can mean a hundred different positions leading to a hundred different sounds. Literally one centimeter on an SM57 will give you a bigger tone variation than this pickup switch. I doubt I even have to prove that. Even then we're only talking about one aspect of an IR. What power amp was used? Was the power amp color removed? What speakers were used? How worn were they? All of these add up to a bigger difference than the difference between the pickup switch did in my Gibson pickup switch video.

Agreed, there is a lot that goes into shooting an IR that will change the tone greatly. But if we're comparing equal quality IR's to one another as you did with premium pickups, aren't IR packs shot within the same family of speaker/cabs similar tonally? "Similar" being highly subjective of course. I think so. That's why I don't buy as many packs as I use to. I have so many great IR's of my fav cab/spkr combos that I don't feel the need to buy more shades of the same spkr/cab combos. If you compare entry level pickups to boutique pickups or unexperienced homegrown IR's to pro IR's, then there's bang for your buck.

Anyway, I get your point and agree. You can get far more tonal options with an IR pack than you can with a pickup swap and for less money. I just don't agree with your validation. To me the whole guitar is the foundation. Pickups are a key part of shaping that foundation. So to me they are an important part of the overall equation that shouldn't be over looked.

"Everything affects everything".

\m/

Btw: I haven't checked IR pricing in a while. Looks like the Fractal Store is averaging $29 a pack. Certainly reasonable prices.
 
All depends on what pickup in what guitar with what player.
You never know what will be the result until you try it! I've found one pickup to sound like sh.. in one Strat and the same pickup to slay in another Strat!
 
We can basically eq the pre-amplified guitar signal however we want. This is probably what has held me back from swapping out pickups
 
We can basically eq the pre-amplified guitar signal however we want. This is probably what has held me back from swapping out pickups
True. But you can't completely change the pickup's resonant peak, and you can't EQ out the effect of the guitar's circuitry on the pickup's impedance curve.
 
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True. But you can't completely change the pickup's resonant peak, and you can't EQ out the effect of the guitar's circuitry the pickup's impedance curve.
Yeah. Thats another reason why formant shifting would be good
 
I will add, my jp mm stealth sounds vastly different than almost any of my other 20 guitars and their setups. I have to make entire set of presets just for this guitar. I have to believe its mostly the pu's
 
Definitely PU do affect sound IMHO to the same degree as IR. Wether it be HB or SC : amp attack, distortion grain etc will be different. Hence, as with amps and cab ir's, it remains a matter of taste and style, so I would not recommend anything more than another. PU's change can make a cheap guitar sound better, but won't correct any setup and hardware flaws.
Also I found that any "blending" wiring schemes for SC pu on strats will badly affect intermediate positions (2&4) quack. I insist on this because it diminishes sound difference of PU. Good PU may sound like crap on blended wiring and I suspect quite some users to resell high end PU not because the PU were bad but because the wiring scheme killed the sound. (Please note high end PU is a "high quality PU", and not necessarily a "high price PU".
 
I will say @ML SOUND LAB, you tend to go where angels fear to tread and I really admire you for generating these conversations.

I think the issues for me when talking about pickup swaps are:
  • What is the construction & sound of the original pickup in a given guitar?
  • What is the construction & described by marketing materials sound of the pickup I am thinking of dropping in the same guitar?
Depending upon what you are starting with and what you are replacing it with, the sound could be a huge upgrade (e.g. switching out the stock 70's Matsumoku pickups in my 70's Electra with SD Invaders gave the guitars a dramatic drop in noise floor and mas cojones) in an otherwise quality instrument.

Swapping out the stock pickups in my PRS SE Singlecut for the same Invaders did not yield the same difference, in fact the Korean PRS SE pickups sounded better in that guitar, so back they went. Bravo Paul for that choice of pickup in that guitar model!

So I understand the experience you had at the high end in the video, but the titling of the video was designed to elicit fierce debate I think.

As far as the pricing of IR's in the market, to me it depends on how ubiquitous the cab modeled is, the wear of the particular speakers, the skill of the engineer, the capture environment, and the engineering choices made. I love your stuff, I love Kevin's stuff, and I love Andy's stuff. All of you set the bar really high for me.

There is some stuff out there by unnamed providers that I purchased years ago in my initial tone quest where I could hear extreme phase shifting due to aggressive EQ, less than ideal acoustic space, and what I perceived to be gaps in mic choices.

That's when I realized the IR market is very much like the guitar market in a way. You can spend $300 for an LP copy all the way up to $100K+ for a holy grail LP. It's all about what the consumer expects and what each market segment will bear. For me the pricing for guitars and ir's is about perceived value versus perceived performance. All of us IR providers price our stuff based on our fixed costs, overhead, break even points, projected sales volume, and what the market will bear for the quality we produce.
 
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I think what has changed here is peoples frame of reference. Back in the day you had one or two cabs and you might have swapped out your pickups to get that sound you were looking for. Hence the importance of pickup selection. Now, with the Axe, your DAW and other modelers you have the opportunity to audition 1000's of positional cab IR's with the same set of pickups. This makes pickup selection less important IMO. It's all about EQ. It was always about EQ it's just that now you have the ability to easily tweak almost every tonal aspect in your chain.
 
As someone who has been through a similar process of spending lots of time and money experimenting with different pickups, pots, caps, hardware, setups and more I've settled on finding pickups that work in each of my guitars and worrying more about speaker/IR choice and EQ/gain structure to get what I want. So I tend to agree with your assertion that IR's make a more dramatic difference than pickups (at least similarly spec'd models), while also noting that the title of the video is deliberately provocative.

The broader discussion here revolves around pre EQ vs post EQ , dynamic factors and the highly variable nature of pickup, speaker and microphone construction and placement. As such I think it's part of the same discussion guitar players have had, and will have, forever regarding gear. Personally I want my pickups to complement the character of my guitar and my IR's to accurately represent the speaker/mic/preamp choice used to capture it.

Rather than ask a question like "why spend a given amount of money on pickups when you could spend it on IR's?", a better question would be "given I have a set budget, what should I change first in my rig; my pickups or my IR selection?".
 
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