About to buy...audio gap question?

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Bones43x

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I just want a little clarification if this quirk has been improved in any firmware updated since the last threads on the subject.

I know there was a post where Cliff said he would have the engineers see what could be done.

I'm about to drop the cash, but I hate buyers' remorse. I'm terrible about second guessing things...

The audio gap probably won't be an issue since my current rig has a pop when channel switching. I run a Mesa MkV:25, H9 Max, and TimeLine controlled by a Boss ES-5...the latter 3 will probably be sold after purchasing the AX8.

Ideally I'd like to switch between Vox edge of break-up and cranked Plexi tones. I'm the only electric player at church, and we do modern P&W. I frequently switch between reverb/delay drenched ambient swells, overdriven rhythm and leads. I suppose even if I get gaps in these situations, they'll probably be masked by the bass, drums, keys, pads, and sequencing.
 
IMO, this is the single most overblown "issue" people complain about. Read the threads carefully. There are plenty of suggestions from users to help manage the small audio gap. I also play at church using the same types of tones you describe. It's never been an issue for me. YMMV...
 
Depends on how you set up presets. Using scenes and scene controllers you can drastically change your sound within the same preset without gaps or switching amps.

I am most often the only guitar player and we play Hillsong, Elevation, Bethel, etc. If you're super worried about ambient stuff keep the H9 at first and run it in the AX8 fx loop. The AX8 can send different midi PC messages for each scene so you can trigger up to 8 presets on the H9 within each AX8 preset.

99% of the time I am just fine with the AX8 and an expression pedal.

You can run 3 different delays within a preset on AX8 (delay 1, delay 2 and multi delay). So you can have a short/long/ambient delay without having to program scene controllers.

Reverb and drives seem to be the biggest CPU hogs to me. Just remember the reverb still sounds really great on normal quality and with low echo density - it's hard to not want to turn everything up as high as it will go but that will save you CPU keeping those set lower. I also use filters instead of drives to save CPU. The world is your oyster with filters, lots of eq and gain to be had when done right.

I don't get all caught up in switching amps mid-song, it's not something that really happens in most popular live worship music or any popular live music for that matter. People switching amps mid-song are definitely in the minority. None of my favorite bands do it. Majority of players use an amp with drive pedals to color the tone/add gain. That can easily be done with the AX8 filter or drive blocks.

I use aviom 360s and JH Audio in ears and we run Meyers in the mains so pretty much everything in the chain is close to or top of the line. In short the AX8 is the best gear purchase I've made for playing at church. I was forced to switch from ISO cabs to load boxes and the AX8 kills the load boxes (radial, bad cat, palmer). And compared to dragging in two amps my back thanks me compared to the ISO cabs. Now I just roll in plug in power, 2 xlr's and an expression pedal and I'm good to go. Sounds exactly the same through my headphones as it does at home when I'm building presets.
 
Scene controllers as mentioned above are a great workaround. I use the 5153 blue 100 watt for my main gigging sound and use a scene modifier on the gain to drop it down till it becomes clean so it can be used as my clean sound as well. No audio gap.
 
Thanks, guys. I pulled the trigger.

I figure it can't be that bad. And like you say, it's not really necessary to switch amps, but when I have the option, I do switch channels during a song. With modeling it's just natural to think, hey, I have all these amps at my disposal so it's easy to go overboard with the options...Fender clean, Marshall crunch, Mesa MkIIC+ lead, etc. ...all in one song. I'll probably get the most mileage out of the Marshall, Friedman, and Splawn models. Vox for cleaner stuff with a drive for more dirt.

The thing is...I actually like to keep it simple. I play dirty amps, and I don't currently use OD pedals. I alternate between my 50w Splawn Quick Rod and the Mesa MkV:25 every couple months. With the Splawn, even though it has a clean channel, it's too clean for me so I just use the OD channel (switching between 1st and 2nd gear) and back the volume off on my guitar for clean. The Mesa is set up dirty on channel 1, and dirtier on channel 2.

Like I said, the Mesa pops when switching channels, and there is a bit of a delay using the ES-5 to switch the amp and midi control the H9 and TimeLine. If you factor in the pops that most amps and true bypass pedals make, and the time it takes to tap-dance a traditional rig, a split-second gap shouldn't be a problem in most situations, anyway. In a live band, it would be masked by the other instruments.
 
I just want a little clarification if this quirk has been improved in any firmware updated since the last threads on the subject.

I know there was a post where Cliff said he would have the engineers see what could be done.

I'm about to drop the cash, but I hate buyers' remorse. I'm terrible about second guessing things...

The audio gap probably won't be an issue since my current rig has a pop when channel switching. I run a Mesa MkV:25, H9 Max, and TimeLine controlled by a Boss ES-5...the latter 3 will probably be sold after purchasing the AX8.

Ideally I'd like to switch between Vox edge of break-up and cranked Plexi tones. I'm the only electric player at church, and we do modern P&W. I frequently switch between reverb/delay drenched ambient swells, overdriven rhythm and leads. I suppose even if I get gaps in these situations, they'll probably be masked by the bass, drums, keys, pads, and sequencing.

I use my AX8 primarily for P&W settings as well and use similar tones. There are various ways to minimize the gap but honestly it isnt as bad as some make it out to be especially in the the context you will be using it in. Also like one poster above suggested I also suggest you keep the H9. It's not absolutely necessary but it does help keep you from hitting the CPU ceiling really quickly for those more ambient tones.
 
Reverb and drives seem to be the biggest CPU hogs to me. Just remember the reverb still sounds really great on normal quality and with low echo density - it's hard to not want to turn everything up as high as it will go but that will save you CPU keeping those set lower. I also use filters instead of drives to save CPU. The world is your oyster with filters, lots of eq and gain to be had when done right.

I don't get all caught up in switching amps mid-song, it's not something that really happens in most popular live worship music or any popular live music for that matter. People switching amps mid-song are definitely in the minority. None of my favorite bands do it. Majority of players use an amp with drive pedals to color the tone/add gain. That can easily be done with the AX8 filter or drive blocks.

Do you mind pointing to where I could find tips on using filters as drives or share what you do? I'm still learning the AX8 and how to use it in the most efficient way and it woluld be cool to not have to rely on my H9. I would like to try and keep it on my pedal board for my Suhr Badger 30. Anyway like you said most P&W guys use one amp and a pedal set up that's what I do with the AX8... I use the /13 amp model with two different gain settings set on the XY of the amp block and then use drive pedals to augment those. Those drive pedals also may have XY settings on them so that with several delays etc cause me to hit the CPU ceiling pretty fast. Sometimes I can't even use a reverb block at all. Using the filter block may help but it may not since I do like how some of the drives sound with that amp. I guess I could try an mimic what they are doing with the filter blocks.
 
The gap is there and it's noticeable, but whether that's an issue or not is up to you. Depending on the patch, it can be 1/8th of a second or so, sometimes less.

There are ways around it:

Reducing CPU usage will reduce the gap length, so choosing fewer effects blocks and lowering reverb fidelity can help.

Use a drive pedal to kick a cleaner amp into overdrive.

Use filters, EQ, or compressor to lower the signal before a dirty amp to clean it up.

Use scene controllers to adjust the gain of the amp from cleaner to crunch to higher gain.

Use a separate drive block as a faux second channel and use scenes to mute/unmute the drive and amp blocks.

Use patches to switch between CPU intensive sounds (will be slightly faster than X/Y switching in some cases).
 
I'll jump back in here. I use my AX8 like I would a rig (I would say a "real rig" but I consider my AX to be a "real rig"). In my experience, very few P&W songs require a bunch of preset changes. My go-to basics include a Plexi (50w and 100w), a Vox AC30TB, a Carr, a Lonestar, and a Tucana. (I posted a few of these presets at the Axechange if you want to try them). None of my presets use up a ton of CPU. I just do not need a yuge preset. I'm a simple guy and I use simple things. I don't like complicated.

I place a couple of effects (usually 2 drives, one clean and one with more drive) a delay, a chorus, in front of the amp, and a filter for boost at the end of the chain. I position the foot-switches in the same place in all of my presets so I know what to expect when I step on them. I dislike surprises especially in church (God keeps His eye on what goes on in church). Our services are 1.5 to 1.75 hours long with a lot of worship music. We also have nights of extended worship that can run for several hours. I can get through them with ease using my basic rigs and my guitar volume (which I use constantly) to clean up my guitar or drive it hard. When I need to change presets within the context of one song (happens rarely) I just put the AX8 in sticky mode to toggle between presets. I could not be happier with my AX8 for use in P&W. It is easy to use, I don't have to do the pedal dance, and my tone has never been better. And best of all, since it is usually the roadie's week off, saves my tired old bones from lugging a bunch of heavy gear around. Now THAT is an answer to prayer! What a great time to be a musical servant. Cliff and the FAS team have developed the pinnacle of P&W tools.
 
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I wouldn't discourage someone from buying the unit based on the gap alone, but it's there, and it's a reality you would have to deal with if you choose to change amps. It's not overblown at all. It's just a limitation that Fractal hasn't been able to solve (not really sure whether they are trying to, or even want to).

I'll steal this example from a different thread. Amp change at 3:14. Very noticeable gap:

I'd like to see a guitar amp that does it quieter or faster than that. Note that the guitar is way more to the front than is usual in any music, let alone P&W. You wouldn't have noticed if the gap was in the rythm part behind the solo. Don't go talking as if guitar amps don't have gaps or pops. Not my experience by a very slow crawling mile and then some. None of my amps were silent or gapless.

I just pick silences to switch in. I can usually find someplace to switch, especially in front of bridges, after the intro or for solo's. I think out of 90 something songs/presets I use just a couple that have more than one set of amp block settings that require X/Y. Most are delay settings, some modulation and drive pedals on/off. Too big changes take people out of the mood. Those don't gap at all. I do have some really over the top reverb X/Y's that do produce pops. Those are really huge 10 second, high mix reverbs.

It's a fact of life. When switching to a different amp the current settings need to be flushed and replaced with new settings. That takes a microsecond or 6. There is no way to keep the current settings active while loading the new ones because audio processing is taking place. Only way to get it smaller is use less intricate modeling with less parameters. If you can't live without that, there are other units available from the competition.

If you need true gapless switching you'd have to buy the II and set up two amps and a mixer block and fade between them.
 
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Rythm guitarist in my previous band had a Multitone. I don't think he ever used the clean channel, all the time on the crunch and lead channels. Can't say I ever noticed his switching.
I spoke to Dolf Koch several times myself. He modded one of my other amps. Had Koch KV50, his first ever amp myself for a short while before he came out with the -tone models, but couldn't really bond with it. I did like the Multitone, though.

I was also saying. It has a tiny gap. Want smaller gaps, get lesser models. Go to the competition that offers it. Want Fractal tone, deal with the gaps. I don't mind them, but some get really irked.

Pretty sure that if there was something that could be done, Cliff would have done it. There was enough complaining to make him move.
 
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If you need true gapless switching you'd have to buy the II and set up two amps and a mixer block and fade between them.
Agree with everything you said except this. You don't actually need a mixer block. On an MFC you can set up one IA switch that toggles Amp 1 on at the same time as Amp 2 off.
 
To me this is the one let down of the AX8. None of my multi-channel amps or my POD HD500x were perfect, but they had less noticeable gap. It would be great and not have to compromise. I guess that will be addressed in AX8 II?
 
Agree with everything you said except this. You don't actually need a mixer block. On an MFC you can set up one IA switch that toggles Amp 1 on at the same time as Amp 2 off.
Or that. ;)

Since I never felt the need I'm not entirely up to speed on the subject.
 
I'd like to see a guitar amp that does it quieter or faster than that.
I don't understand why every time the topic of the gap comes up someone makes this claim. If you have a tube amp that is not vastly faster and less noticeable on switching channels than the AX8 is on switching amp models then your amp is broken. Simple as that. If the gap on the AX8 isn't an issue for you and the music you perform, that's great. I just don't get why we have to pretend it doesn't exist.
 
Nice of you to be respectful of other people's opinions. It doesn't bother you personally so I guess it's just an "overblown" thing that people complain about just to complain about. :rolleyes:

Well, I did start my post with "IMO" which means "In My Opinion". I ended with "YMMV" which means "Your Mileage May Vary", meaning that you may not agree with me.

I stand by my statement. IMO, people make it a bigger issue than it is. I'm not discounting that it may be a problem for others. It's overblown from the perspective that this has been beat to death on this forum. FAS has explained why it is the way it is many times. Perhaps another product that does not have an audible gap would better meet the needs of those who can't work around the gap.
 
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A similar thing happened with the FX8 and the CPU issue. It was discussed to the point where it seemed to be a major issue and I almost didn't purchase the FX8 because of it. I'm glad I didn't let these discussions sway my decision, It's been the single best effects purchase I've made. I've used the FX8 exclusively for over a year and a half and have not had one CPU issue. It's also been quite a while since I've seen any comments made about it so either users have learned to deal with it or moved on to something else.

I will be the first to agree that there will always be shortcomings of any device. There will also be those who will complain about them to the point that they appear to be major flaws. I'm not discounting the frustration that these users have but in this case, as with the CPU issue, it appears that a majority of users do not experience the same problem.

Compromises are always made when it comes to digital gear. If the AX8 isn't performing the way that's needed, there are plenty of other options available that will. It will all depend upon the compromises you're willing to make or accept. For what the AX8 (and FX8) has to offer, the quality of effects and tone far outweigh it's 'shortcomings'. To be perfectly blunt, if you can't find up to a second (worst case scenario from what I've read) when you're playing there are other issues that don't have anything to do with the gear being used.

Bottom line, don't let something like this keep you from buying the AX8 and at least finding out for yourself. Everybody's needs and expectations are different. At the end of the day, you're the only one who can ultimately decide if it's something that you can work with or not. I and many others have found it to be a non-issue and are completely happy with the AX8.
 
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