Why not have a built-in "test file" for TM

Brock

Experienced
My understanding is the Kemper matches both EQ and gain structure in its tone matching process. I believe it uses some sort of noise it sends through the original unit that covers the spectrum of frequencies and levels. It seems the Axe's Tone Match block is the same except it doesn't have the built-in "test file".

Rather than playing complex chords up and down the neck, etc. - wouldn't it make more sense to have a built in test file to play through the amp that more scientifically covers the whole range of frequencies and gain?
 
The Axe is tone matching a tone to your specific guitar and tone.

The 2 processes are not the same thing.
 
I'm not saying they're the same process. I'm just wondering, maybe having both options would be more useful. E.g., I have 6 electric guitar, all different with different pickups. In fact, there's a huge variance in tone between my guitars. Maybe the "vanilla" approach would be more broadly useful. Not saying to eliminate the present process, but maybe add another option.
 
I have, at times, used pink noise from the synth block to do tone matching or to check a match that was done with a guitar. The pink noise is the input to the match block in place of my guitar signal, that's used to do the EQ matching to the source signal.

Works okay when the source material is also fed by my guitar signal. For example: when tone matching drive pedals I own.

The synth block is definitely what you're looking for here if you want a generated tone.
 
I don't know what you mean tone mach "just whatever". I'm talking about matching the amp in a way that takes into account the existing Amp models but then "fine tuning" the sound using a TM block through a more scientific process (e.g., using a "test audio file" which would be built into the TM block, rather than playing "whatever"). This would take the guitar and PU out of the equation so you could create a more neutral representation of what your amp sounds like that isn't colored by the guitar you use (until you actually play through it, after the capture stage).
 
I don't know what you mean tone mach "just whatever". I'm talking about matching the amp in a way that takes into account the existing Amp models but then "fine tuning" the sound using a TM block through a more scientific process (e.g., using a "test audio file" which would be built into the TM block, rather than playing "whatever"). This would take the guitar and PU out of the equation so you could create a more neutral representation of what your amp sounds like that isn't colored by the guitar you use (until you actually play through it, after the capture stage).
Hmm I understand the Tone Match function to match a recording to your tone, which includes the guitar. For the best match, wouldn't you want to use all tone resources available?

If you do want to match it to "some sort of reference", then the Synth block as a generator as iaresee described would work.

But at that point, what's the difference from matching it to a guitar in your hand at the time?

I'd say try both and see what sounds best among your different guitars. It's easy to postulate things endlessly in the air and in text. Try one to get some concrete answers and solve this much faster :)
 
I believe @Brock is talking about live tone matching. For that the matching is not guitar dependent so like @iaresee said you can use the synth block to create noise.

Preferably it's better to first shoot a mic+di IR out of your mic-up and then use the same DI signal for matching the Axe-Fx to your real life amp and now you have the ability to try out amp sims with that same mic-up and finally do that "real amps vs Axe-Fx" comparison that I feel everyone should experience. :) That's exactly how I matched the Avenged Sevenfold live rig. After the process I gave the guitar tech one guess at which one is the real amp and he chose the Axe-Fx as the real amp... but in all honesty we couldn't hear that well as another band was doing a sound check at the time but still. It will get ridiculously close.
 
I believe @Brock is talking about live tone matching. For that the matching is not guitar dependent so like @iaresee said you can use the synth block to create noise.

Preferably it's better to first shoot a mic+di IR out of your mic-up and then use the same DI signal for matching the Axe-Fx to your real life amp and now you have the ability to try out amp sims with that same mic-up and finally do that "real amps vs Axe-Fx" comparison that I feel everyone should experience. :) That's exactly how I matched the Avenged Sevenfold live rig. After the process I gave the guitar tech one guess at which one is the real amp and he chose the Axe-Fx as the real amp... but in all honesty we couldn't hear that well as another band was doing a sound check at the time but still. It will get ridiculously close.
This is a great IR....4x12 BRIT 80S R121 (ML)... kudos..Cab Pack Wizard....cause I am very very very OSD picky on my IR's...just tought I'd put that out there....
 
This is a great IR....4x12 BRIT 80S R121 (ML)... kudos..Cab Pack Wizard....cause I am very very very OSD picky on my IR's...just tought I'd put that out there....
Well thank you! I would also like to think that I'm pretty picky with my positioning so I'm glad we agree. :)
 
This would take the guitar and PU out of the equation so you could create a more neutral representation of what your amp sounds like that isn't colored by the guitar you use...
The amp models in the Axe are already a completely neutral representation of of the amps that they model.
 
The amp models in the Axe are already a completely neutral representation of of the amps that they model.
I think the Axe-Fx is incredible. But there are still differences. I suspect a tone-matching system like this might be able to bridge some of these differences. E.g., The Triaxis has controls the Axe-Fx does - Dynamic Voice. While you can argue you can achieve the same results using the 5-band Mark V EQ, it simply doesn't sound the same.

You think I'm wrong, match this tone.

Give me that crunch tone. You won't be able to do it.
 
...The Triaxis has controls the Axe-Fx does - Dynamic Voice.
Dynamic Voice is five-band EQ. From Mesa Engineering's own drawings:

upload_2017-3-15_1-13-48.png




If you want to get closer to the tone in that video, take JP's own words (35:23 in the video you posted): "It doesn't have a lot of gain to it." You'd be surprised how much authority you can throw into a tone if you back off the gain.

I still don't see how any of this would be served by a "more neutral representation of what your amp sounds like that isn't colored by the guitar you use." Your guitar affects the tone you get. You can't match a tone without taking your guitar into account.
 
@Rex Do it - post a preset. I'll one-up you - his settings are attached below (I recommend the Rhy2 settings).

It simply does not sound the same. If I'm wrong, prove it - attach a preset. I'll even help you by providing DI tracks with a Steve's Special in the bridge position of an Ibanez basswood body RG guitar.
 

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Nah, you prove it. Take your best shot, tell us how you did it, post it here, and tell us what's wrong with it.
 
Nah, you prove it. Take your best shot, tell us how you did it, post it here, and tell us what's wrong with it.
Nah, I've already done it. I've copied it setting for setting. I've tried a variety of @ML SOUND LAB's IRs. I've done a tone match using Cliff's tone matching guide.

Bottom line, it doesn't sound the same.

The original owner of the Triaxis I just bought, a very capable Axe-Fx, user did the same directly prior to selling the unit and he agrees. See https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/how-to-tone-match-pre-gain-differences.124512/#post-1485278
 
If you use the same guitar/pickup for both reference and the tone match, it doesn't matter if you change to a different guitar/pickup after that. If you are not doing a live tone match, differences in playing will make more of a difference.

As others have stated, try using the synth block to create either pink/white noise or a sine wave sweep. You should get a result indistinguishable from the tone matched rig, assuming you have selected and properly adjusted a suitable amp model. Tone matching is for the creation of IRs, not for recreating non-linear amp simulations. While the Kemper does this, it also imposes other severe limitations that the Axe does not. Apples and oranges.

If you cannot obtain a satisfactory result, then you need to examine your process, starting with your amp model and settings.

And the video you posted was recorded with a distant camcorder mic. There is no way to accurately tone match such a recording.
 
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