Question for the Fractal Audio Team: is it legal to actually sell presets made with your products?

TheTrooper

Inspired
Ok, let me explain what I exactly mean (please consider that this is purely because of curiosity and I would like to hear the opinion of other forum members)

I know users (like Fremen) that let you download presets from their site and then, if you feel like, you can donate to their website (and I get that) but I'm sure they have a sort of "permit" from the company and technically this is not "selling" in any way.

But what about other people (and I've seen plenty of them) that make presets, and then actually sell them (maybe adding a "Fractal Audio" label to their videos/stuff?)
Is that legal?
Do they have a sort of "ok, do what you want" from the company?

Again, this is just out of curiosity, purely to understand the "legality" of this kind of stuff and how much You can push the boundaries with someone else's brand/name.
 
I'm unclear on what you're asking... Is this about charging for presets, or is it about other vendors using the Fractal name?
 
I think actually that when you are selling a preset ( or a bunch of em ) you are not really selling anything that fractal has made or create, but your own expertise to create sound with what the unit offers. Some people are ready to pay for that work and i think it is actually legal if the seller declares his income from those sales. Again, he's not selling IR's or things created and sold by Fractal.
 
I've seen people selling presets for all kinds of things, not just Axe Fx presets. Even entire mix chains, which I dont completely understand. As long as all the work behind the presets is your own, you're not distributing paid cabs or cab packs, or claiming to be Fractal Audio I think you're in the clear.
 
I'm unclear on what you're asking... Is this about charging for presets, or is it about other vendors using the Fractal name?

Yeah, charging for preset in the sense of: "Presets for sale/ Patches are for sale".
I've seen some guys that use some sort of watermark on their videos maybe intending that they are endorsed by companies(?)

I think actually that when you are selling a preset ( or a bunch of em ) you are not really selling anything that fractal has made or create, but your own expertise to create sound with what the unit offers. Some people are ready to pay for that work and i think it is actually legal if the seller declares his income from those sales. Again, he's not selling IR's or things created and sold by Fractal.

I totally understand what do You mean, and I thought about it too, but You can make these .syx files because You are using an Axe and exporting them from it.

I'm sure that nobody is declaring the income or paying taxes (except to paypal) when doing that Hahah

Of course selling commercial IRs is not legal, that is out of the question.
 
If all you're worried about is whether it's OK to sell presets, here's a little thought exercise...

Is it OK to use a computer program to write a book for sale? AFAICT, that's exactly comparable: you're using software sold by some company to produce an artifact that others are willing to buy.
 
I've seen people selling presets for all kinds of things, not just Axe Fx presets. Even entire mix chains, which I dont completely understand. As long as all the work behind the presets is your own, you're not distributing paid cabs or cab packs, or claiming to be Fractal Audio I think you're in the clear.
I've seen that too but since this is Fractal forum I wanted to refer only to their stuff. (I mean, I'm sure people sell Pod presets too, so the situation is the same for them I guess).

The reason I asked that on the Forum is because we all use AxeChange, and I don't see why somebody sell presets instead of sharing them, considering that they are only able to do so because they use a Fractal machine (and because they've picked up stuff and the "how to" infos about the amp and cabs right here on the forum, by reading threads that other SHARE)

If I was the company, I would be a little pissed about somebody doing that (I perceive it like a sort of exploit) but this is jus the way I see it, that's why I asked for other opinions.
 
I don't see why somebody sell presets instead of sharing them
Simple: because someone is willing to pay for them. Full stop.

If I was the company, I would be a little pissed about somebody doing that (I perceive it like a sort of exploit) but this is jus the way I see it, that's why I asked for other opinions.
It's not an exploit. And there's little any company can do to stop it. Sellers couldn't claim endorsement or use trademarks that were not theirs to use, but otherwise the sale of the preset files isn't protected in any legal sense.
 
If all you're worried about is whether it's OK to sell presets, here's a little thought exercise...

Is it OK to use a computer program to write a book for sale? AFAICT, that's exactly comparable: you're using software sold by some company to produce an artifact that others are willing to buy.

Well, no, it's not the same. (But I understad what you were aiming at)
These programs are made to write on a PC; if what You write ends up being a book that You sell it doesn't change the reason why that program was created for: use it to write.
Following that train of thought would mean that I can't even use a pen to write on paper, because the pen was invented by somebody else. (and You can apply that to any object basically)

The presets aren't made to be sold, they are made so you can use them to play.

Mine was't a post because I was worried, it was just out of curiosity.
I'm sure Fractal Audio thought about all the scenarios, like somebody that sells these presets.
 
Simple: because someone is willing to pay for them. Full stop.

Well, that's a no brainer, I knew that.


It's not an exploit. And there's little any company can do to stop it. Sellers couldn't claim endorsement or use trademarks that were not theirs to use, but otherwise the sale of the preset files isn't protected in any legal sense.

I agree, it's not something that can be stopped (altough it is not largely diffused as music/films download is)

About the "legal sense": that is what I would like to know; I don't know if the sale of presets is or is not protected by actual laws, and I'm sure it doesn't really bother the company otherwise they will be already on it, but about watermarks and stuff yes, I'm sure that is not entirely "legal".

To make it really really short: I make a video with the Axe Fx, using one or more of my presets and I apply a "Fractal Audio" watermark/sign/whatever on all the length of the video: would that be considered legal even if I didn't ask formally permission to the company and even if I'm not endorsed by said company? (doing i just because I like the product?)

Again, I like the "bending rules" "going around the rules" concept and I asked just because I didn't have anything to do.
In fact I was bored, that's why I posted the thread; maybe somebody reading this will go to sleep thinking about the concept.

Or maybe he won't.
But i like to think he will. :p
 
If all you're worried about is whether it's OK to sell presets, here's a little thought exercise...

Is it OK to use a computer program to write a book for sale? AFAICT, that's exactly comparable: you're using software sold by some company to produce an artifact that others are willing to buy.
hmmm ..... not quite exactly comparable I think. Comparing it to a Fractal device produced syx file - which can only be used on a similar Fractal device - is like saying you use InDesign to typeset a manuscript and then sell the InDesign file rather than a printed and bound book :)

Just being pedantic ... sorry ... carry on. This topic was pretty much thrashed to death not so long ago
 
hmmm ..... not quite exactly comparable I think. Comparing it to a Fractal device produced syx file - which can only be used on a similar Fractal device - is like saying you use InDesign to typeset a manuscript and then sell the InDesign file rather than a printed and bound book :)

Just being pedantic ... sorry ... carry on. This topic was pretty much thrashed to death not so long ago

That was i meant, yes.

(was this topic already discussed? I didn't know that)
 
About the "legal sense": that is what I would like to know; I don't know if the sale of presets is or is not protected by actual laws, and I'm sure it doesn't really bother the company otherwise they will be already on it, but about watermarks and stuff yes, I'm sure that is not entirely "legal".
As long as they don't use trademarks that don't belong to them there's no ambiguity to the legalities here; they are well within their rights.

To make it really really short: I make a video with the Axe Fx, using one or more of my presets and I apply a "Fractal Audio" watermark/sign/whatever on all the length of the video: would that be considered legal even if I didn't ask formally permission to the company and even if I'm not endorsed by said company? (doing i just because I like the product?)
You can't use the Fractal Audio logo without their permission. The content of the video isn't the problem, it's the use of a trademark that doesn't belong to you. Fractal Audio can decide if they choose to enforce their trademark or not.
 
(was this topic already discussed? I didn't know that)
Well maybe not so much the Fractal Audio reaction to people selling presets, but more the whole ethos of having commercial presets and the pitfalls that can happen. That's probably the way this discussion will go too. IIRC FAS stayed out of the last discussion.

I can't see FAS being too annoyed because to use a syx file (as long as one of their commercial copyrighted IRs isn't bundled with it) created on a FAS device you need a FAS device to use it. A few years back the Axe-FX was seen as brilliant but maybe a bit daunting to dial in and there were many geeky suggestions on how things could be done in the deep editing .... so even though it's come quite a way since then, the more buzz about third party presets that will help you get results quicker, the more units you potentially sell to people still on the fence worried about 'tweaking'.
 
Tons of ppl and companies do that with entire libraries of synth/ws patches for the roland, korg, yamaha keyboards and expanders even with proprietary format files (and - btw - sysex used for the AxeFx patches isn't a proprietary format file). Most of those synths are using modeling engines for the sounds and/or even sampled sounds (proprietary samples sounds: you can't sell the samples but you can sell a patch that use that sample that is in that synth/expansion card).
And this is what the AxeFx basically is. A rack modeling synth with an external sound source: your guitar.
So, yes: it's totally legal to send a patch or a patches library for the Axe.

That said, now 2 words about the "patches selling" querelle.

Like many other "virtual things" that are on the todays digital market, it's all about what I call "intellectual honesty".

If i take a factory preset and tweack a little of eq, change the factory cab with another factory cab and spin a couple of other knobs and then I sell that patch... well ... it's legal but I think is not "intellectually honest".

But if I build - say - an "Hendrix tone" patch starting from an empty grid, putting on that work all my effort and a lot of time, collecting all the original tones i can get, analyzing those tones (maybe using my quality and professional gear in my studio: from some guitars to quality monitors, spectrum analyzer, etc) and after a lot of tweaks, try-and-compare, measurements... and a lot of work and time spent on that project... I don't see WHY i can't ask some money for the "AxeFx Woodstock Hendrix Tones Library"
(even with the most sexy 3D rendered virtual box in my e-store! :D ) .

Can you do it by yourself? Just Good!... don't buy it, do it!
 
I purchase synths patches, like those from John Lehmkuhl at Plugin Guru, so I think there is a market, it may not big though.

I'm pretty good at rolling my own guitar patches and I think the biggest challenge is that the input source can vary greatly. I have made patches that are perfect for one guitar but don't work well with another. With synth patches the signal source is part of the patch.

I have to say there is solid community here and an incredible exchange of thoughts, ideas, opinions and technical knowledge. Patches are shared frequently.

As far as selling on this forum I would contact a moderator and ask.
 
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hmmm ..... not quite exactly comparable I think. Comparing it to a Fractal device produced syx file - which can only be used on a similar Fractal device - is like saying you use InDesign to typeset a manuscript and then sell the InDesign file rather than a printed and bound book :)

Fair enough. How about this: You publish a book as an Adobe PDF (and, for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that you've used some feature that hasn't been adopted by the many PDF reader knockoffs...). Does selling that book as a PDF infringe upon Adobe in any way?

Really, I don't see a problem. Yes, the sysex file is only usable on a Fractal product. However, it's literally just a bunch of parameters for the algorithms that exist only in the AxeFX; none of Fractal's intellectual property is written to the sysex file.
 
People are buying KNOWLEDGE, not amps. Anyone can create these presets with a little imagination, a bit of studying up, and a clear idea of what they want to do. They are not branded 'Fractal Audio' by naming them by the platform.

This is an oft discussed subject. The bottom line is if you like what a creator has done, buy. I have purchased a few interesting ones (Moke's Organ/Plexi is a pretty cool preset, and I did not have any desire to go through the trouble of researching/making it.) I have purchased a few others, but as with all these things, what works for some may not work for others. Their style/guitar/whatever didn't quite translate perfectly to my situation, so most of them sit somewhere far down on my preset list...never used. (The excessive use of compressors/PEQ and wild routings generally seems 'too much' for me...I can get the tones I like without those additions.)

Moved.

R
 
Like many other "virtual things" that are on the todays digital market, it's all about what I call "intellectual honesty".

If i take a factory preset and tweack a little of eq, change the factory cab with another factory cab and spin a couple of other knobs and then I sell that patch... well ... it's legal but I think is not "intellectually honest".

But if I build - say - an "Hendrix tone" patch starting from an empty grid, putting on that work all my effort and a lot of time, collecting all the original tones i can get, analyzing those tones (maybe using my quality and professional gear in my studio: from some guitars to quality monitors, spectrum analyzer, etc) and after a lot of tweaks, try-and-compare, measurements... and a lot of work and time spent on that project... I don't see WHY i can't ask some money for the "AxeFx Woodstock Hendrix Tones Library"
(even with the most sexy 3D rendered virtual box in my e-store! :D ) .

Can you do it by yourself? Just Good!... don't buy it, do it!

I think that so-called "intellectual honesty" is far too slippery a term a to have any legally-useful definition.

As I noted in my previous post, the sysex file is nothing but a list of parameters for the code in the AxeFX.

Your argument, as I read it, seems to have something to do with the effort or knowledge that the creator brings to the process of creating a patch. If that's true, then here's my counter-argument:

Let's say that vendor A takes a factory patch, changes a few parameters, and sells it. Meanwhile, vendor B uses his/her extensive knowledge and expertise to create a patch from scratch, and sells that patch. I think you'd say that it's OK for B to sell the patch, but not for A.

But... what if A and B both happened to create the same patch? Remember, the sysex file is just a bunch of parameters. You have no way of knowing how much (or how little) effort went into creating that patch. And the two patches are identical...

Now, I can see the argument that vendor A is not as competent or as diligent or as "intellectually honest" as vendor B. But they're the same patch... So the question becomes (I think) do you pick the vendor based upon knowledge of their process, assuming that the vendor is not only willing to share that detail of their business? Furthernore, what's your criterion for evaluating the vendor's honesty when they tell you about how they created the patch?
 
From the Axe II manual:

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It's all right there. By using Fractal products, you agree to this.
There is no mention of presets or any restrictions on them at all, so Fractal makes no claim to their usage either personal or corporate. You are free to do whatever you want with them.
 
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