Fuzz Face Authenticity

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kleydj13

Member
I'm a huge fan of Fuzz Faces and I spent a few years sniffing solder building my own. I got deep into testing transistors and circuit mods. Pretty fun stuff. But since I got into the Axe-Fx I haven't spent as much time with the real pedals. I have a Fuzz Face on my main Marshall patch that I use for live playing. I will use it to go huge for a solo. But I am not getting some of the more nuanced / detailed interactions. My experience with the Axe-FX thus far has been extremely positive and it has had an uncanny ability to deliver on pretty much any sound, so I'm guessing it has to be user error.

I'll start by explaining how I set the Fuzz Face in the Axe-FX right now. I run the Fuzz Face as the only pedal in front of a Marshall Plexi set to about 5. Bass on 2, Mid and Treb maxed, bright switch off. Factory 59 cab. Its set for a pretty light / moderate crunch. Lots of range on the volume pot. Then on the Fuzz Face I set the level to 9.5 and the gain is at about 4. Tone at 5.5. The main thing is the gain knob. I find that 4 is about the place where it gets somewhat raging with the guitar full on, but it still cleans back if you roll down. If you set the gain higher than 6 or 7 it doesn't clean up past a solid crunch.

Now to talk about what I feel is lacking. On the real circuit I find you have to dime both the level and gain knobs. Then you set the bias of the Q2 transistor to the right voltage so it has the right balance of gain, sag, sustain, and clean up. I'm just not sure where how / if this same interaction occurs on the Axe-Fx's model. I find I can't run the gain and level on 10 and still get it to clean up. But if I set the gain lower it will clean up, but it isn't as intense when full on.

For some sound reference I'll point to this video that I was just watching tonight and it sparked my memory of those old circuits I built. He's running a strat into a Dunlop mini Germanium Fuzz Face ending with a vintage Bassman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiygPyyjgvk

Skip ahead to:

7:04 - Clean guitar at 3
7:12 - He rolls it up to about 7, starts to thicken and sustain, still articulate
7:17 - Really saturates at 10, overpowering with huge sustain
7:35 - You can hear how drastically it changes throughout the sweep

After spending some time with the Axe on my Marshall preset I just couldn't get that same interaction. If I set the gain at 4 then I can get a pretty good clean, but not quite as clean as the real thing. But then roll the volume up to 10 and it isn't as intense as the real thing on 10. It also doesn't have that sweet spot at about 7. The Axe-Fx smoothes out the curve to be very linear, while the real Fuzz Face is much more extreme in its sweep.

I tried experimenting with the Bias control in the advanced section. Similar story. It was a pretty subtle effect. Having a bias knob on the real Fuzz Face would drastically alter the sound and feel depending on what value pot you used. But it could realistically go from sputtery and gated to bloated and oversaturated. Then there was some magic in finding that perfect sweet spot in the middle.

I tried some different clipping types, but still didn't have much success. In the real Fuzz Face choosing Germanium Transistors vs Silicon is very impactful. In the Axe the closest I could tell was Germanium Diodes. I'm guessing this refers to clipping Diodes, in which case that's not what I'm after. The transistors have a lot of character and I'd love to be able to accurately go from Jimi Germanium to David Gilmour Silicon.

I'd appreciate any insight as to how I can get that same experience with the Fuzz Face in the Axe-Fx.
 
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I am going to subscribe to this topic. Never was able to get a really good fuzz sound from the Axe either. So I am hoping for some insights.
 
I've also had trouble getting acquainted with the fuzz models. I'm sure I could be using them better, but the fuzz tends to come off as harsh and I have difficulty getting it to the warmer sound I'm looking for. Reading this back it sounds absurdly subjective, and I haven't actually spent too much time trying to tame the fuzz. I suspect I need to tweak more in between the amp and fuzz until it is really dialed in, but so far I've gravitated towards over drive models.

Any fuzz wisdom is appreciated.
 
The Fuzz Face is a huge part of Eric Johnsons sound and I've not been able to dial in close to what he uses, but it could just be me?
 
Similar thoughts here.

I can get a Fuzz Face tone, but not the beautiful mess of a real pedal. The real pedal gives more shades with picking dynamics and as you say volume roll off.
 
I figure it's a non-starter. A real Fuzz Face has an unbuffered input so the pickups and pots in the guitar essentially become part of the circuit if you put the FF at the beginning of your effects chain. Even a bleed cap on the guitar volume pot has an effect on the FF. I don't see how you can get that kind of interaction with a digital model. Similarly, the battery is part of the circuit and real FF's sound different with different types of batteries and between fresh and partially drained batteries.

Not that all of that stuff can't be simulated digitally, but I wouldn't expect that rolling off the volume is going to have the same interaction with the sound that it would with a real FF. I think the best compromise would be to simulate the rolled off, and the full volume sounds in settings, then X/Y them or blend with a pedal.
 
StickMan said:
I figure it's a non-starter. A real Fuzz Face has an unbuffered input so the pickups and pots in the guitar essentially become part of the circuit if you put the FF at the beginning of your effects chain. Even a bleed cap on the guitar volume pot has an effect on the FF. I don't see how you can get that kind of interaction with a digital model. Similarly, the battery is part of the circuit and real FF's sound different with different types of batteries and between fresh and partially drained batteries.

Not that all of that stuff can't be simulated digitally, but I wouldn't expect that rolling off the volume is going to have the same interaction with the sound that it would with a real FF. I think the best compromise would be to simulate the rolled off, and the full volume sounds in settings, then X/Y them or blend with a pedal.
Click to expand...

The Fractal can change the input Z when you engage the fuzz face if the Input Impedance is set to auto.

And remember, not too long ago, simulating the feel of a real tube amp was a non-starter too.
 
StickMan said:
I figure it's a non-starter. A real Fuzz Face has an unbuffered input so the pickups and pots in the guitar essentially become part of the circuit if you put the FF at the beginning of your effects chain. Even a bleed cap on the guitar volume pot has an effect on the FF. I don't see how you can get that kind of interaction with a digital model. Similarly, the battery is part of the circuit and real FF's sound different with different types of batteries and between fresh and partially drained batteries.

Not that all of that stuff can't be simulated digitally, but I wouldn't expect that rolling off the volume is going to have the same interaction with the sound that it would with a real FF. I think the best compromise would be to simulate the rolled off, and the full volume sounds in settings, then X/Y them or blend with a pedal.
Click to expand...

Why would the fuzz face be any different than a tube amp - which in my experience the Axe-FX has nailed? They both have circuits that can be analyzed and modeled. If anything the Fuzz Face would be quite a bit more simple as there isn't really that much to it, especially compared to something like a high gain multi channel amp.

And to be clear, I'm not saying the Axe-Fx fuzz face lacks the character of the real thing. It mostly has to do with how you set it up and interact with it via your volume knob. It would be cool to be able to do both silicon and germanium sounds, but I'm not saying that the tonality of the fuzz is lacking.

I did a little 10 minute sound check again this morning and compared it to my fuzz faces and the video clip linked in the OP. The Axe Fuzz Face with the gain at 4 will clean up pretty well. But rolling my guitar volume up to 10 was a very linear and even increase in gain. At 10 it was pretty moderate. On the real thing the range from clean to dirty is much more pronounced. At 3 its very clean - cleaner than the amp itself with no fuzz face. At 7 it starts to saturate and gives an almost crunchy / overdrive sound. Then from 7 to 10 it is a pretty drastic increase in gain, sustain, and low end. If I set the axe fx fuzz face with the gain on 4 it never reaches that third stage. If I set the gain higher to about 7 it will get there with the guitar on 10, but then it doesn't clean up.

I'd love to be able to get that authentic sweep and interaction with the volume knob.
 
barhrecords said:
The Fractal can change the input Z when you engage the fuzz face if the Input Impedance is set to auto.

And remember, not too long ago, simulating the feel of a real tube amp was a non-starter too.
Click to expand...
This. The interaction is there, if you set it up that way.
 
I've been down this road as well and just use certain pedals in front of the Axe when I'm not able to get what I want from the Axe models. I think there's room for improvement for sure though, considering how incredibly well modeled the amps are at this point. I was thinking this would or will happen w/ the FX8 now a part of the lineup.
 
barhrecords said:
The Fractal can change the input Z when you engage the fuzz face if the Input Impedance is set to auto.

And remember, not too long ago, simulating the feel of a real tube amp was a non-starter too.
Click to expand...

Can you expound on how to set this up? I haven't messed with input impedance yet, and that certainly alters a fuzz face.
 
StickMan said:
I figure it's a non-starter. A real Fuzz Face has an unbuffered input so the pickups and pots in the guitar essentially become part of the circuit if you put the FF at the beginning of your effects chain. Even a bleed cap on the guitar volume pot has an effect on the FF. I don't see how you can get that kind of interaction with a digital model. Similarly, the battery is part of the circuit and real FF's sound different with different types of batteries and between fresh and partially drained batteries.

Not that all of that stuff can't be simulated digitally, but I wouldn't expect that rolling off the volume is going to have the same interaction with the sound that it would with a real FF. I think the best compromise would be to simulate the rolled off, and the full volume sounds in settings, then X/Y them or blend with a pedal.
Click to expand...

As others have said, the Axe-FX can do this for you. It's also worth noting, this is not a digital simulation, but real caps/resistors at the input of the Axe-FX II that gets swiched in and out, depending on the first active block in the grid.
 
Wow, never knew of this. I've not needed fuzzes much but not quite happy with tones I'd get trying them. Pretty cool that the axe does that with regards to the input impedence.
 
Wow, just tried changing the one fuzz preset to where the drive block was first in the chain. Huge difference to my ears. Learn something new every day.
 
I've been struggling with the fuzzes since I got the Axe. Only pedal that hasn't been replaced. I just use a walrus Janis when I need fuzz. I would love for someone to teach me either A. what I'm doing wrong B. show me how to get a crazy glitchy fuzz sound ala something dwarfcraft could think up.
 
Same sentiments as others in this thread. The fuzz models need work done on them by FAS. Until then, I'll hang on to my fuzz pedal.
 
I also never was able to get a decent fuzz sound from Axe too, despite trying everything possible. Since I am a HUGE fuzz fan, I still use a DBA Fuzz War and a Fuzz Factory in front of my Axe2. I hope in some time, Cliff would want to improve the fuzz modelling of Axe too. But for now, i just add some fuzz drive blocks to sweeten up my fuzz pedals.
 
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