Not sure what I'm doing. Bash my bass sounds!

H13

H13

Inspired
Hey all.

As the thread title suggests: I've made some bass patches. However I'm a bit clueless with bass and I often struggle to get the bass guitar to sit correctly in my mixes.

So I threw on a new set of Rotosound strings onto my bass and spent the afternoon setting up bass patches from scratch. Obviously when it comes to mixing, there are things I can definitely improve on, but if you've got some kickass sounds to start off with, then it makes your life a shitload easier doesn't it?

First thing's first. Here's my bass DI:


Recorded by going Bass -> RNDI -> RME UCX. I'm using this DI to test all the patches. However if you can hear anything particularly shite about the DI, that's gonna be the first thing for me to fix isn't it? My bass has an active preamp so there's some tweaking I can do to the DI sound. Cliche' riff to play, but I wanted to test the sound across all 4 strings and a bit of chugga-in Drop D.


Here's my clean patch


All other patches are based on this clean sound. I basically changed the drive pedal in front of each patch to get a different flavour. So again, if there's something particularly shite about this patch, then that's gonna be the first thing to fix. This one doesn't have a drive pedal in front of it :).


Here's my dirty patch:


I've thrown a FET Boost in front of the clean patch to try to boost it into some spanky OD. What I don't like about my bass patches in general is the low end distortion. I like the spanky sorta wet slappy sound up top, but I'm not a fan of rumbly farts on the low strings. Is this something I can fix or is it the nature of bass OD? I think I might have a bit too much OD on here.


Here's my metal patch:


I'm using a Rat Distortion on this. Once again, I dig the top end. The bottom end doesn't seem to be farting as much on the bottom strings, but to me it sounds a bit hollow. Again, I'm not sure if this is something I can fix or if it's the nature of bass distortion.

Here's my Fuzz Patch:


In regards to fuzz? Yeah. I've never used it before. On anythiing. I dig the fuzzy, disgusting sounds Muse sometimes get from their bass. I'm not REALLY trying to clone that bass sound because I don't think it's possible with JUST an AFX and a Bass Guitar. However I wanted some sort of disgusting fuzzy sound that still sounds musical and adds some oomph.

Go nuts. I know my monitors are a bit weird (especially with the top-end) so any and all suggestions are very welcome. As I said, I don't really know what I'm doing with bass sounds and am approaching this as a guitarist so if I've emphasised the wrong "tones" or whatever, I would hardly be surprised.

There's no processing done on any of the tracks. Everything is AFX -> Interace -> Speakers. No EQ, Compression, Filter or anything.

Thanks for your time :)
 
Post your presets to start and I'll gladly poke at them a bit more.

What I'm not hearing is any compression. IMO, at least at what I think you're driving to, you'll want some on the front end of things.

I'm not sure since I can't see your preset, but if you're using any cabs, drop them out. Run a parallel clean / mostly clean signal path to output as well and blend it to taste. That'll beef / solidify your low end a bit.

Which drive block are you using? Or is it only the FET Boost in front? You may want to experiment with having one signal chain go through SV Bass amp and some compression, with a 2nd chain going through another amp (I like Herbie, or one of the 5150s personally) for some grit/dirt.

It also sounds like you're playing with a pick. Nothing at all wrong with that, but realize that bring a lot of note attack and mids with it. Playing finger style will fatten up the tone (and you can play a percussive finger style to get pretty much best of both worlds).
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

I've got another mate helping me at the same time and based on his suggestions (and yours), I've split the bass preset into 2 amps:

PDm8DRo.png


Both amps are the SVT. The screenshot shows the settings. For each patch, the settings don't change much, so it's a fair guide. Amp 1 (Top amp) is running into an Ownhammer 4x10, Amp 2 is running into an Ownhammer Sub. That's why I won't post the preset because you might not have the cabs and I certainly don't have the rights to share them!

There's a fair bit of compression running. The Multiband at the end balances everything out and each amp has some Output Compression running as well (2 on the top, 3 on the bottom).

In regards to the drive pedals:
Clean - FET Boost (Drive\Level set to 5. It's not really distorting anything, just sweetening the top end)
Dirty: FET Boost (Drive - Set to 9.5)
Metal: Rat Distortion
Fuzz: Face Fuzz

When I record, I always record a DI for reamping purposes and I include it in the mix a little bit too. For the time being though, I'd like to get an absolutely bitching bass sound WITHOUT the DI as that's the sound I'd prefer people to hear. I know the DI adds a fair bit to the mix, but the patch is the noise I want people to listen to.

So after the split, a whole bunch of tweaking and adding a bit more compression, here's the result. I've combined all the sounds into 1 and split them up via the comments. Hopefully that's more convenient for people? (FYI: Each test goes for 1 minute and 5 seconds. Skip forward by 1 minute and you'll find a new sound ;))

The split has certainly cleaned things up and I would say is an improvement across the board. It feels like to me that it's lost some...fluidity and some life? It's reasonably punchy though. Suggestions still welcome for improvements :)

 
wow that is a lot of bass eq you are dialing in on the svt amp (just from watching the screenshot). Isn't that going to be muddy with the cabs? Did you also try tube pre instead of the SVT? When I record bass I only use tube pre and no cab. I do the EQ in the Cubase itself. But using no cab might not work for you if you use a lot of drive. But you can give it a try. The Axe fx cabs make it too muddy for me. But I am not a metal guy and more into fusion.
 
Well...I like bass.

I've never played with an SVT in real life, so I just pulled it up, grabbed a couple of cabs that I like, went: "WHEEEEE!" with the knobs until I found something that sounded good to me.

Have you listened to the clip? Do you think there's too much bass?
 
H13 said:
Have you listened to the clip? Do you think there's too much bass?
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Yes I have listened to them. On some tracks there is too much low end for my taste. But it all depends on the other instruments and how it fits into the mix. If you use too much lows you can come in conflict with the bass drum. Many bass players make that mistake of using too much lows. Also sound men on big festivals do that lots of times. Especially in rock and metal music. Resulting in too much sub bass and a bass guitar that can hardly be heard. Instead of lows you can also use low mid. That way you are more likely to be heard in the mix.

But it can also be a personal taste. I hate muddy basses. And lot of times in rock and metal music the bass is mixed in the background with the guitars loud on top. So the bass is only providing a bit of low end to the guitar riffs. That's not what I like and it is not very fulfilling for me as a bass player.
 
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Fair enough.

I couldn't pull back the lows on Amp A. I've got a HPF running at 1khz and that's what handles all the distortion. Pulling the lows out of that meant that any distortion\character I had sitting on top of the sub was thin and eh.

However, I pulled back the depth\bass on the sub. I wasn't hearing a difference, so I just kept pulling it back until I DID hear a difference. Ended up with the Bass\Depth knobs around 5-ish There's probably quite a big difference that I couldn't spot in my room. I also boosted the mids in the sub. I pulled back the gain on most of the patches as well to clean things up a bit.

The end result I don't feel is as dramatic, but I think it's a noticable improvement.

 
Using a drive block in parallel will cause latency which will screw with the phase of your signal and (in my opinion) sounds particularly bad on bass.

You can compensate using the lookahead in a compressor block. I can't remember the settings offhand but a search here should uncover it.

Edit: Here's the thread -http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/drive-block-in-parallel-causes-phase-issues.92282
 
H13 said:
I couldn't pull back the lows on Amp A. I've got a HPF running at 1khz and that's what handles all the distortion. Pulling the lows out of that meant that any distortion\character I had sitting on top of the sub was thin and eh.
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My recommendation would be to alter your grid up. Move your amp and cab line up from the third to second line. Next add shunts coming off of the bypassed phaser block down across the third line. Tie this line in after your filter block that your using for the dirty and distortion sounds. In what you have essentially created is a DI line, add a volume block so you can control how much you want in the mix and also add two filter blocks with a 200-300Hz low-pass filter and a 50Hz high-pass filter.

I'd also look at adding one more filter block just for the dirty and distortion to go along with your high-pass. It would be low-passing at 4kHz or higher (use your ears). Also, where you set your high-pass filter for the dirty and distortion sounds is kinda wonky. I'd personally recommend high-passing them between 500-700Hz.

With those three sounds (DI, Dirty, Distortion), you should be able to come up with a pretty bad ass tone straight outta the Axe-Fx.

I'd also ditch the multi-compressor block at the end and stick a compressor right after the filter blocks on the DI line. I'd use just the compressor block and use studio model. Get good gain reduction, but still retain the punch. Also, where that multi-comp block was, change it to just a regular comp block. Bass likes broadband compression, unlike distorted guitars. Set up that compressor not as aggressive as the one on the DI line, since you're compressing all three lines with this one. You're just looking to glue the lines together into one cohesive unit. Confined, yet still dynamic.

Hope this helps you out.
 
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Cheers for your suggestions all :). If I'm trying to get a bitchin' bass tone, of COURSE I'm gonna play some Tool ;).

So I've done some pretty heavy duty tweaking and I'm nearly at the point where I'm pretty damn satisfied with my bass tone.

First of all: I'm not going to incorporate a DI sound into the patch. I only play bass for recordings. I always record everything DI then reamp it with the AFX. I'd rather just use the DI track in the DAW and blend that in according to taste rather than drop it into the patch itself. I want to get a completely bitching AFX Patch that ONLY uses the AFX that I'll then blend with...whatever other bass I have going on.

Cheers for the heads up in regards to the latency. That thread you linked to was back in 2014 and we've had a large amount of updates since then. I'm not detecting any phase issues in regards to my patches, but if your ears spot something that I don't, I'll do as you suggest with the extra compression block. I DID try it but I couldn't hear any difference, but as I said, I'm in a bit of a weird room and my ears are not golden :p

The suggestion of lowering the HPF to around 500-700 was great. I introduced some crossover by putting a LPF on the Sub at 700hz and put the HPF on the Cab at 500. It blended things together nicely and made it "glue" a bit more. It doesn't feel like there's as much difference between the 2 sounds.

I tried replacing the Multiband Compressor with a normal Comp block. It did offer a bit more glue and I would agree that it was an improvement, but I prefer having a Multi at the end of the chain. It gives me a bit more control of how things "sit" overall. I'd actually prefer things to be a little uncompressed for the raw sound. You can always add more compression with plugins and the like, but it's a dick to take it away.

Whoever said there was too much bass was spot on. When I dropped it in a mix, it was a big flubby mess. A pleasant flubby mess, but a mess nonetheless. I've dailed back the sub a fair bit. However, I still want the sub to be dominant. I love it when bass lines go for a walk or a bit of a wanky fill, but hate it when the song loses all bottom end for doing that.

So after an assload of tweaking, here's version 3 of the bass sounds.



I'm still trying to tame that sub a little bit. I like how much of it there is in the sound, but I'd like to tighten it up a smidgen so that things punch a bit harder. Any suggestions?
 
Many great bass tones are made using parallel paths. One of these might be a DI, another might be an amp etc. I see you are using the RNDI, which is a great DI, but you could also record direct signals using the Axe-Fx, which would be even better. Then, for reference, I'd try to get a DI that is widely used for bass.... One that can fatten the tone. Reddi, Radia, Sansamp, etc. Then include —inside your preset— a parallel path representing this fat tone. I've had good results using the TUBE PRE, or in one case a COMPRESSOR or DRIVE and TONE MATCH blocks together. Think of this like a bi-amp rig.

For the Taylor Swift and Metallica Tours, I designed bass presets with THREE paths: the raw bass (ok, a wee bit of limiting), a fat DI, and an amp (typically SV). I've also done one with four paths, where the fourth is a guitar amp.

I had the pleasure of being shown the ins and outs of this technique by Paul Northfield when he was working with Dream Theater.

PS: If you design the preset right, you can have one in and multiple different outs for use during mixing.
 
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Admin M@ said:
Many great bass tones are made using parallel paths. One of these might be a DI, another might be an amp etc. I see you are using the RNDI, which is a great DI, but you could also record direct signals using the Axe-Fx, which would be even better. Then, for reference, I'd try to get a DI that is widely used for bass.... One that can fatten the tone. Reddi, Radia, Sansamp, etc. Then include —inside your preset— a parallel path representing this fat tone. I've had good results using the TUBE PRE, or in one case a COMPRESSOR or DRIVE and TONE MATCH blocks together. Think of this like a bi-amp rig.

For the Taylor Swift and Metallica Tours, I designed bass presets with THREE paths: the raw bass (ok, a wee bit of limiting), a fat DI, and an amp (typically SV). I've also done one with four paths, where the fourth is a guitar amp.

I had the pleasure of being shown the ins and outs of this technique by Paul Northfield when he was working with Dream Theater.

PS: If you design the preset right, you can have one in and multiple different outs for use during mixing.
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Great post. Has anyone created something like this that they would like to share? I'm just getting back with the axe and I use this technique to record bass (basically Ermin's technique in the Systematic Mixing Guide) but with DI through my interface and VSTs now and I'd love just to do it through the axe. I need to learn how to create complicated patches but I'm not there yet.
 
Admin M@ said:
Many great bass tones are made using parallel paths. One of these might be a DI, another might be an amp etc. I see you are using the RNDI, which is a great DI, but you could also record direct signals using the Axe-Fx, which would be even better. Then, for reference, I'd try to get a DI that is widely used for bass.... One that can fatten the tone. Reddi, Radia, Sansamp, etc. Then include —inside your preset— a parallel path representing this fat tone. I've had good results using the TUBE PRE, or in one case a COMPRESSOR or DRIVE and TONE MATCH blocks together. Think of this like a bi-amp rig.

For the Taylor Swift and Metallica Tours, I designed bass presets with THREE paths: the raw bass (ok, a wee bit of limiting), a fat DI, and an amp (typically SV). I've also done one with four paths, where the fourth is a guitar amp.

I had the pleasure of being shown the ins and outs of this technique by Paul Northfield when he was working with Dream Theater.

PS: If you design the preset right, you can have one in and multiple different outs for use during mixing.
Click to expand...

i'm very excited to see this post, :):D;) would be great, share a preset with this layout. about this setup, are there any phase issues?
 
You DO need to watch for phase issues. The best way to check for that in my opinion is using external tools. I've used a limiter with lookahead as a micro adjuster on the "raw" line. The cab block also includes sub-millisecond delays.
 
I had the pleasure of being shown the ins and outs of this technique by Paul Northfield when he was working with Dream Theater. [/QUOTE said:
Would you, if you find the time, give us the pleasure of seeing this technique in action by providing a preset that demonstrates how the pros are doing it? I've gotten decent results from other people's presets but in the end I'm really just a guitar player, not a bassist. Would really appreciate it.
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