Jay Mitchell and the power of flat response

scotts

scotts

Inspired
Jay was in Birmingham, AL this weekend. He sat in with me at my house gig Friday and Saturday night. Saturday we got together at my home to go through some patches and also to hear our rigs side by side in a quiet environment.

(Regarding our sound experiments: This was not a meeting of equals. This was definitely a teacher/student scenario. Jay knows a lot more than me about sound stuff. Jay knows a lot more than damn near anybody about sound stuff. It's his life work and he is at the top of his field. When he offers me help I close my mouth and open my ears.)

I have two sets of really good speakers. My $1,000 per cabinet non-powered Tannoys and Turbosounds are solid mid-level products and I have had very good results with them and have (until now) been mostly content with their ability to represent the Axe.

Jay brought a high end coaxial 12" bi-amped monitor that he designed and built. He explained the components and the high points of the design to me in some detail. I'll muck it up if try to reexplain it here. He can chime in if he reads this thread.

Before we got started with some other listening projects I went back and forth with my favorite clean jazz patch between one Turbosound TCS-59 and Jay's monitor.

The difference was astonishing. My TCS sounded very good. Jay's monitor sounded incredible. There was a richness and natural fullness to the mids that I didn't know was missing until I played through a high end truly flat response system. When playing through the Frazier the articulation and detail of the Axe's ambient effects was stunning. I heard beautiful detail in the delay and reverb trails that were simply not there with my TCS cabinet. For the first time I really heard what the Axe can do.

This was not an issue of some subtle nuance or a matter of preference like with traditional guitar cabinets. No guitar oriented tweakery is present in Jay's design. This was an issue of how well the Axe can perform when it is paired with a cabinet and amplifier that meets the fixed and non-negotiable standard of Full Range Flat Response.

Jay doesn't pay any attention to the mass produced retail speaker market that the rest of us get to suffer with. He designs and builds super high end gear for contractor installations and has no experience with the mid-level FRFR market. He expected my Turbosounds to be pretty good (and they were) but he was also pretty blown away by how significantly better his speaker sounded.

To my ears it wasn't even close. Same patches, no changes in settings. His cabinet was unquestionably superior to mine. The missing mids issue was huge and glaringly noticeable. Overall it was the difference between the Turbosound being really good with a few reservations and the Frazier being "Holy Crap my tone has been elevated to a new level". It was like getting a new, improved set of ears.

Bear in mind that when I selected these TCS-59 cabinets I did lots of comparison tests and enlisted the aide of several friends with sensitive ears. My Turbosounds were a good bit more flat response than the QSC K12 and several other products I tested against. Everyone in my test group liked them.

We played Saturday night with a drummer and bassist. I had my usual very good tone. But now I'm completely screwed. I have a new standard in my ear/mind. For the first time I have heard what the Axe can do with a properly designed seriously high end FRFR system and it is amazing.

I'm through dicking around with mid level stuff like QSC Kseries, Verve, Turbosound Live series, Tannoy Live series. I have the finest guitar processor ever created and I must pair it with FRFR gear that will let it speak properly. I have heard/felt the difference and my mind is blown. I am going to bite the financial bullet and move up to high end gear. My ears are worth it and the Axe really can't speak to its full potential without it.

Have two very absolutist statements:

~If you like playing FRFR and you haven't played through a personal high end sound reinforcement rig then you have not experienced the dimensionality and fullness the Axe is capable of live.

~If you are playing through Turbosound, Verve, Tannoy, QSC, etc. mid line FRFR products and you think you are hearing the Axe speaking to its' full potential, you're not. Your rig probably sounds damn good (as does mine), but there is more detail, fullness and dimensionality that our somewhat flawed cabinets are not presenting.

It is reasonable to assume that if you were to A/B Jay's monitor against your current FRFR system YMWNV
(your mood would not vary)

Jay Mitchell is out of control in sound land. The Frazier speaker I played through is simply the best, deepest FRFR experience I have ever had. I pestered Jay all day Saturday; sell this to me, sell this to me, sell this to me... ...oops... Jay couldn't even give me a price. He doesn't retail his stuff. He only sells to contractors for bid-project installs.

(DISCLAIMER: The following message is from Scott. It has not been approved by or discussed with Jay Mitchell.)

Hey Cliff, Tom, whoever... ...cut a deal with Jay to design a high end FRFR system for the Axe. Build it exactly like he says with the exact components he specifies. A Fracmitchelltomic FRFR product would stand head and shoulders above the sound reinforcement mass market and be a perfect match for the Axe.
 
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I'd jump into a deal in a heartbeat. The reality for me is my current personal monitor feeds me good and healthy; and, I go foh. The foh variable is sometime wide-open interesting from just 'ok' to stellar. But, if I could get a speaker like you described, that would be pretty amazing -- the audience may still suffer from whatever speaker system the venue provides :) Uh, and thanks for the 'gas,' I think. Sounds like a fun experiment!
 
Well there is even better sounding stuff out there. The problem only is that it is way better then the human ear. You can by it at NASA and is normally for spaceshuttles only. LOL
 
The boutique version of FRFR, impressive! I would love to hear that one time (Yek?..)
I guess I'll wait for the perfect "FRFR modeller" to hit the market, with models of verves, qsc's and JayM's :)
Nice review! I hope you had a good gig besides the rig comparison.

Jens
 
I've been wanting to hear what Jay has to say about the Fratomic Wedges for quite some time. I would absolutely LOVE to spend a day with him...

Hey Jay, how much would it cost to have you "install" a couple of those monitors in my basment? :D
 
I remember Jay Talking about his custom made monitor, Interesting that it's a Bi-Amped coaxial speaker... Humm. I also remember a mention of what it might cost to build one and it was pretty expensive.

It doesn't surprise me that it would allow you to hear things that most of us are not hearing with are middle of the road gear. The thing is most of the PA's that I play through are probably in the same boat quality wise. So I guess it would be safe to say that what I hear on stage is what everyone else is hearing in the audience:lol.

For the personal experience I can see where it would be really nice to have the range that Jays FR system does. Maybe he can divulge specs and hardware? if he were in a divulgatory mood.
 
(DADA) Well there is even better sounding stuff out there. The problem only is that it is way better then the human ear. You can by it at NASA and is normally for spaceshuttles only. LOL
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Okay. Here is what I do not like about interacting in forums. I take the time to craft and present an informative post. And then I get a meaningless, obtuse reply like this with zero useful content. Humorous, even slightly off-topic replies can be great fun. The above reply smacks of negativity to me. Slap me if I am reading too much into your reply but it seems to me to say; "Wow I'm cool, hip and keeping it real and Scott's a tone snob." And it's supposed to be okay because you tag your comment with a cutsie acronym. LOL

I haven't busted into the current round of ridiculous posts about the absurd prospect of modifying FRFR power amps to be more "guitar-ish" as if a power amp can somehow be guitar oriented and flat response at the same time. Return the favor. If at all possible please contribute to my post in a meaningful way that expands and/or enhances the dialog.
 
(Jens) Nice review! I hope you had a good gig besides the rig comparison.
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I had fun all weekend. Jay is super friendly and easy going and great fun to hang out with. He went through the whole 60's/70's hippie thing and has excellent stories to tell from that time.

Jay is also a physicist and real into stuff like Super String Theory. I am a Shaolin-Buddhist (read Ch'an and/or Zen) meditation teacher. I am looking forward to having more time to compare multi-dimensional universe notes with Jay.
 
scotts said:
Okay. Here is what I do not like about interacting in forums. I take the time to craft and present an informative post. And then I get a meaningless, obtuse reply like this with zero useful content. Humorous, even slightly off-topic replies can be great fun. The above reply smacks of negativity to me. Slap me if I am reading too much into your reply but it seems to me to say; "Wow I'm cool, hip and keeping it real and Scott's a tone snob." And it's supposed to be okay because you tag your comment with a cutsie acronym. LOL

I haven't busted into the current round of ridiculous posts about the absurd prospect of modifying FRFR power amps to be more "guitar-ish" as if a power amp can somehow be guitar oriented and flat response at the same time. Return the favor. If at all possible please contribute to my post in a meaningful way that expands and/or enhances the dialog.
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I didn't take it as such; I took it to be complimentary as in the only way to get a better sound is to have one spec'd for NASA.

Yeah it's not an overly valuable comment, but it got the thread bumped back up to where I saw it and I thought it was pretty harmless.

And I am someone who likes to think that I am pretty thorough and thoughtful in most of my posts so I appreciate the fact that you took the time to be very specific and detailed in your post. A lot of people would have posted something like "Jay's FRFR system is really cool" and left it at that. It takes time to construct a well composed post and once again it's appreciated.
 
Interesting. Is this a stage monitor or a studio monitor? Assuming the former, while few (perhaps 2?) of us have had exposure to such high-end stage monitors, I'd imagine that more have had access to high-end studio monitors. Why haven't such the studio monitors inspired a similar response? (If the latter, then the question is answered. :?)

I can understand the use of high-end monitors in recording applications, but if this is a stage monitor, what are the real-world advantages? As posted above, it would be better than any sound system we're likely to use, and the stage environment doesn't always lend itself to hearing such nuances.
 
@LMO
When I perform I am more concerned with how it sounds to me than the audience (I am not saying that I don't care..) because it is the sound I and my band play off, so the better the sound the better I play. It might sound like ego-tripping but I don't think it is. 99% of the audience cannot hear a real difference between a 1st generation line6 pod and the axe fx anyway.
I think a lot of people play gigs on their backline and not using PA. I do that almost exlcusively.
Jens
 
Yeah, I definitely couldn't afford one haha. Thank you for the informative post. I think I'd rather not hear how great my Ultra could sound with $$$$$$ monitors as then the ones I would work hard to save up for would sound like garbage...
 
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