Hi/Lo Cuts in Cab Block quandry

joegold said:
It would screw up my power amp + cabs tone.
But I don't see how this necessarily makes the issue revert back to a cab-in-the-room discussion.
Please elaborate.

My Presets, as currently conceived and programmed, are based on fine-tuning my power amp + cab tone.
When I use the Axe on gigs, that's how I use it.
I'm simply trying to find IRs, or ideally a single IR, that can be used with these same Amp Block instances, w/o too much compromise, to send to the FOH on live gigs and/or to use myself when recording demos or practice material at home.

I'm fully aware that if I just wanted to have Presets designed only for FRFR usage that the Axe is eminently capable of having a different Cab Block instance that would be quite suitable for each one of those Presets.
That's just not what I'm trying to do at this particular moment.
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It reverts back to that topic because you're hoping that the same amp setting would apply to two completely different ways of reproducing your sound.
Your power amp and cab setup is not a simple filter, it introduces a good amount of PA coloration and distortion, speaker compression and distortion, you hear it straight in your ears and probably also quite off axis and with floor coupling.
An IR has nothing of all this. The only way to compensate for these differences are:
1) try to make your FOH output as similar as possible to what you perceive coming from the cab (we gave you plenty of suggestions above)
2) opposite of 1
3) find a compromise that works for both in an acceptable way
4) dismiss your PA+cab and use a Frfr cab
5) just continue to use two different IRs

I don't see other ways around
 
joegold said:
I can see doing that on a recording where you want to have the ability to have complete control over your tracks, like on a pop tune for a well-known artist.

But there's still a lot of recording work done where speed is of the essence, because time is money, and the same mic position and EQ for both cleans and dirty's will get the job done satisfactorily.

And, as I've mentioned previously, in a live setting we don't normally see the sound man run up on stage between the guitar player's comping and soloing passages to reposition the mic.

So it should entirely be possible to find a single IR/Cab Block instance that is satisfactory for both types of tones as well, shouldn't it?

But I am slowly resigning myself to the fact that in order to do what I want to via an FRFR system I'm going to need at least 2 Global Cab Blocks programmed, one for cleans and one for overdrives.
I just really don't understand why that needs to be necessarily so.

Has anybody else out there found a single IR/Cab Block setting that works for both your cleans and overdriven tones?
Let's leave hi-gain out of it for now.
Hyper-cleans and mid-gain tones only please.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I was solely in regard to recording, and since I record myself, time is not an issue, neither is budget.

For your live example, again, fair enough, you are correct, when I played live I used my single mesa boogie 4X12 for both my clean and dirty tone. So yes you should be able to get a good clean and dirty sound using the same cab and mic set up.
 
DLC86 said:
It reverts back to that topic because you're hoping that the same amp setting would apply to two completely different ways of reproducing your sound.
Your power amp and cab setup is not a simple filter, it introduces a good amount of PA coloration and distortion, speaker compression and distortion, you hear it straight in your ears and probably also quite off axis and with floor coupling.
An IR has nothing of all this. The only way to compensate for these differences are:
1) try to make your FOH output as similar as possible to what you perceive coming from the cab (we gave you plenty of suggestions above)
2) opposite of 1
3) find a compromise that works for both in an acceptable way
4) dismiss your PA+cab and use a Frfr cab
5) just continue to use two different IRs

I don't see other ways around
Click to expand...

I thank you for your input, I really do.
But I don't get what you're saying above, as it relates to what I've been saying.
Maybe I'm just too dense.

Pwrmac7600, below you, seems to get what I'm talking about.

"Your power amp and cab setup is not a simple filter, it introduces a good amount of PA coloration and distortion, speaker compression and distortion, you hear it straight in your ears and probably also quite off axis and with floor coupling."
Yes, but all that colouration happens prior to the mic picking it up.
IRs are supposed to be a snapshot of a single mic position and EQ.
I still see no reason why it should be so difficult to use a single snapshot of a mic position to reproduce both a clean tone and a dirty tone when doing so with a real mic is not difficult at all.
FWIW
I use a Bryston 2B LP power amp which introduces the least amount of colouration and distortion of most power amps made today.
I also use EVM-12L drivers in my cabs which contribute very little compression or distortion to the signal.

As for your #1 suggestion above...
That's what *I've* been trying to do for many years now.
And I don't recall seeing any suggestions in this thread about how to do that better.

Re your #2...
Huh?

Re your #3...
Yes, I'm aware of several potential workarounds.
But I'm still exploring my preferred way of working for now.
I see your #5 and #5 as basically being the same idea.

Re your #4 suggestion...
Highly unlikely.
The sound I'm getting through my real cabs is just too good.
But if I ever do find that amalgam of things that will make my FRFR rig sound even better than my real cabs I'll be happy to make the switch.
 
joegold said:
IRs are supposed to be a snapshot of a single mic position and EQ.
Click to expand...
That's exactly why the same amp or drive setting won't also work on your real cab

joegold said:
I still see no reason why it should be so difficult to use a single snapshot of a mic position to reproduce both a clean tone and a dirty tone when doing so with a real mic is not difficult at all.
Click to expand...
You admitted that it's not difficult at all if you're creating your sound for the FRFR out.
Again, what's causing you this problem is that you are comparing amp-in-the-room sound (your power amp and cab unmic'd) to an FRFR sound.
For some reason you don't want to accept this statement but that's what it is

In my #1 I was talking about making sound your Frfr as similar as possible to your unmic'd cab = try to achieve amp-in-the-room sound with an IR

#2 the opposite= make your cab sound like a miked cab
 
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I don't want to get in the middle of the squabble here, but I think the point of what he is trying to say is being missed.

He is simply stating that in the analog world he can play a gig and use an amp into a single cab with a single mic on it, and get tones that sound good live for both clean and dirty, and he is wondering why with a single mic ir he can not achieve the same results. One rig that sounds good both clean and dirty.
I don't see that he is comparing in the room sound to baked in mic ir sound.

His logic makes sense. If he can play a gig with a real amp through a Boogie 4x12 loaded with vintage 30's with a single SM57 on it, and switch between clean and dirty and it sounds good out at FOH, then he "should" be able to play a gig with a virtual amp through a single mic SM57 IR of a Boogie 4X12 loaded with V30's, and switch between clean and dirty and it sounds good out at FOH.

I have to add, not a problem I have, but he clearly is having an issue achieving this, and is pondering why. Wish I had an answer, but alas since I don't have this issue, I don't have a solution.
 
For me, 4x12 IR's that work for higher gain also work for clean tones. But 1x12 open back sound are still the best for spanky clean tones.
 
joegold said:
My cleans are using Doubleverb sims and my overdrives use USAII+ Deep sims.
But sometimes I'll use a drive pedal sim on a clean Preset too, usually the BB.
Click to expand...

If you are changing amp models, that would be more like using a different cab in the real world?

You wouldn't normally switch two heads with the same cab and mic. So your scenario is more a two amp rig. That would have two cabs and each be mic'ed separately?
 
Too confusing to do multi-level quotes now on this forum, so I'll use copy and paste....

I said:
"IRs are supposed to be a snapshot of a single mic position and EQ."

You said:
"That's exactly why the same amp or drive setting won't also work on your real cab"

Huh?
The same amp and/or drive settings DO work on my real cab.
They don't work when using IRs.
Not sure you really understand what I'm talking about yet.

I said:
"I still see no reason why it should be so difficult to use a single snapshot of a mic position to reproduce both a clean tone and a dirty tone when doing so with a real mic is not difficult at all."

You said:
"You admitted that it's not difficult at all if you're creating your sound for the FRFR out."

Right.
If I use a different instance (including different IRs and/or EQ) of the Cab Block for each separate Amp Block instance I can get satisfactory results.
But I'm trying to do this with a single instance of the Cab block and your explanations as to why this does not work so well don't really seem to be on the mark, as far as I can tell.

You said:
"Again, what's causing you this problem is that you are comparing amp-in-the-room sound (your power amp and cab unmic'd) to an FRFR sound.
For some reason you don't want to accept this statement but that's what it is"

It may well be at the root of my issue.
But I still don't understand how or why.

You said:
"In my #1 I was talking about making sound your Frfr as similar as possible to your unmic'd cab = try to achieve amp-in-the-room sound with an IR"

Well that's what I used to try to do.
What I do now is to try to get a satisfactory sounding mic'd cab sound coming out of my FRFR speaker, a CLR in this case.
And I still don't understand why an IR that works well enough as a representation of my mic'd cab for a clean tone does not work equally well as a representation of my cab mic'd exactly the same way with an overdriven tone because with a real mic it DOES work.

You said:
"#2 the opposite= make your cab sound like a miked cab"

Trust me, I'm not trying to get a cab-in-the-room tone anymore.
Pwrmac7600 seems to get it.
 
barhrecords said:
If you are changing amp models, that would be more like using a different cab in the real world?
Click to expand...

No. It's like switching amp channels on a multi channel amp.
Again...
All these presets sound great through my real cabs.

barhrecords said:
You wouldn't normally switch two heads with the same cab and mic. So your scenario is more a two amp rig. That would have two cabs and each be mic'ed separately?
Click to expand...

If I was using 2 amp types in the Axe and only one of them sounded good through my real cabs, then you might have a point.
But this is not the case.
 
I get your point but switching between a Twin and a Boogie including their power amps would be a hell-ov-a multi-channel amp! :)

Switching between the Bandmaster, Twin, Princeton and Deluxe should work more seamlessly.
 
barhrecords said:
I get your point but switching between a Twin and a Boogie including their power amps would be a hell-ov-a multi-channel amp! :)

Switching between the Bandmaster, Twin, Princeton and Deluxe should work more seamlessly.
Click to expand...

Both real amps sound great through EVs.
 
joegold said:
Both real amps sound great through EVs.
Click to expand...

I guess my point was at a show you would mic each one and might not end up with the same mic position or even the same mic on the two amps even if both were using EV's.

Your original Q is interesting though. I wonder if the differences are just EQ.

Have you tried the preset a day presets (posted on the silent under ground studio site).

They have an interesting approach just using GEQ to drive an amp block from clean to dirty. It gets good results to my ears. They do have their own custom IR though. This would be for an FRFR rig.

I was never really happy with the FAS Twin and drive pedals or even high input drive. The Preset A Day preset was an eye opener programming wise to me.
 
barhrecords said:
I guess my point was at a show you would mic each one and might not end up with the same mic position or even the same mic on the two amps even if both were using EV's.
Click to expand...

Best to think of it as 2 preamps with switching, 1 low-gain the other hi-gain, into a 6L6 power section, into an EV.
 
Keep in mind that Joe is saying when using his Axe Fx thru a real cab is sounds good with both amp models. He is comparing the same amp models thru a regular cab and an IR.
 
unix-guy said:
Keep in mind that Joe is saying when using his Axe Fx thru a real cab is sounds good with both amp models. He is comparing the same amp models thru a regular cab and an IR.
Click to expand...

Doh totally misunderstood the question.

I thought he was wondering why the same IR didn't work for clean and dirty sounds (using two different amp models).
 
joegold said:
It would screw up my power amp + cabs tone.
But I don't see how this necessarily makes the issue revert back to a cab-in-the-room discussion.
Please elaborate.

My Presets, as currently conceived and programmed, are based on fine-tuning my power amp + cab tone.
When I use the Axe on gigs, that's how I use it.
I'm simply trying to find IRs, or ideally a single IR, that can be used with these same Amp Block instances, w/o too much compromise, to send to the FOH on live gigs and/or to use myself when recording demos or practice material at home.

I'm fully aware that if I just wanted to have Presets designed only for FRFR usage that the Axe is eminently capable of having a different Cab Block instance that would be quite suitable for each one of those Presets.
That's just not what I'm trying to do at this particular moment.
Click to expand...

Why not use a separate filter block for FOH/recording and use an FX Block to send the unfiltered signal to the power amp / cab? You can use filters to match your line out to the sound of your cab.
 
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