Ok, how do I wire this... Abelton control of MFC

[Pinkycramps]

My setup is getting a bit complex. Ok... really flippin complex.

I want Ableton to control my scene changes for me.
We are running trax in Ableton Live 9, via a Motu MK3 Ultralite. It has 8 output channels + Midi, so it's lightweight and perfect.

In Ableton I have several midi channels that I'm putting out as well. One for DMXIS lights (haven't tackle this one yet, but next week probably) and as of today I am going to try to set up a midi track to send CC's from Ableton, out of the MK3 to change my scenes and programs. I then need that to go back out to other gear, like the DMXis, my Voiceworks+, and out mixer board (where we can have scene changes as well). Sheesh. A lot of midi flying around.

I can't get my head around it though. Should I send the midi from the MK3 direct to the AXE midi in? How will this interact with my MFC-101? (since I still need my expression pedals and the ability to make on the fly changes if I want.)

Anyone have experience with this? I've been talking about doing this forever, and now that I'm sitting here with 5 different user manuals, a rack full of gear and a box of midi cables I'm frozen... ha ha.

Where it gets really muddy for me is my current set up, which flows from my MFC to my AXE,(ch1) thru to my GCX switcher(ch2), thru to my Voiceworks+(ch3).
I don't want to give any of that up. But I want the MK3 to feed into this system to send it's own control messages to all of these things and 4 other devices as well (DMXis, Mixer board, drum module for our drummer, vocal processor for lead singer.)
So, who's the midi expert around here? Can I chain all of this together, or do I need some other gear? How would you route this?

 

[chris]

i'm sure there's a way to do it as is, but it would be very delicate relying on the THRU's of each device, assuming they even have one.

i'd suggest getting something like the Thru or Merge depending on which way the data is going.

http://www.midisolutions.com/products.htm

i used a Quadra Thru to send my MMGT foot controller to the Axe, Infinity Looper and x32 mixer. only the Axe had an Out/Thru, Looper only had an In and x32 has In/Out but no Thru. 2-way communication from the Axe to MMGT worked perfectly and didn't affect the other devices.

you might need one or two Thru's and a Merge, or something like that.

 

[Pinkycramps]

Hey Chris, those products look interesting. And yes, I agree, something like this is going to be the deal. It's just waaaay to risky (not to mention confusing) to chain them. If one piece has an issue, everything in the chain after that point is going to go south and the whole show could crash and burn.

I'm wondering how the AXE would deal with instructions coming from two sources, or can it? I'm not looking in the manual right now, but don't you have to choose the input source? (such as FASlink or Midi.) Can I use my MFC and still get midi instructions coming in on the midi jack from the MK3? Or, am I going to have to abandon FASLink and phantom power and use all midi with one of the devices on that page?

Thanks for the info Chris.

I'm curious... I know other people are using Ableton and doing patch changes. I'll search those threads, but I wonder how it's working for people....

 

[Pinkycramps]

So, I've read the manual, and the midi through mini manual. I can't determine if it's ok to use both the FASLink and the Midi in at the same time, which is what I think I have to do to use both Ableton midi signals and still use my MFC 101.

I see how to echo a midi through, but this is about the MFC sending signals out to other gear. I'm more interested in 2 sources (MFC + Computer) both being able to make program changes or effect midi data (expression pedals)in the AXE itself.

I think I am envisioning or wanting to hook the midi signal direct into the back of the AXE, and still have FASLink hooked up.

OR... is there a different way to do this?

Anyone know the answer to this? Unfortunately It's not really quick or simple for me to test out, so before I dive into programing Ableton midi sequences and wiring this up I'm hoping for some pre-knowledge of what the heck I'm doing.

 

[vangrieg]

Anyone have experience with this?

I have an Ultralite Mk3, and in some songs do change scenes, set tempo and control some other parameters via MIDI. It's actually very easy. Connect your AFX to your Mk3 via MIDI cables. In Ableton, add a MIDI track for scene changes. For that track, add Ableton's "External Instrument". In this instrument's set MOTU as the output port. Then write the envelopes for CC34 in the MIDI clip. This is actually the trickiest part as you need to use your mouse in Ableton, and that's an art form in itself. But you can also record.

That's it.

For controlling other gear, just use AFX's Thru port.

Yes, it's okay to use both FASLink/Ethercon and the MIDI ports. In the songs where I do use Ableton for scene changes, I just look at the MFC to see if the scene changes happen correctly, and use it as a fallback option to manually (or, in this case, pedally (?) ) correct if something goes wrong.

I also control Ableton playback from my MFC. If you want to do that, set the "MFC Echo to MIDI Out" to "On" on your AFX in I/O settings. This way you'll have bidirectional communication with your computer. You can even use Axe-Edit this way, without USB.

 

[Pinkycramps]

Hey Vangrieg, thanks for that info. That is exactly what I was looking for! Great to hear!

I'd love to hear more about how you use your MFC to play Ableton, and how you are using Ableton in general. How many MFC switches did you dedicate to Ableton? Just one, to mimic the return key? (Select next scene on launch) I have an MFC extension that could be handy for this... I was thinking Start, stop all clips, scene up, scene down.

My original plan was to us a Ground Control Pro I have laying around to control Ableton. I could have the four functions I listed, and a few other handy controls like mutes for certain channels or one to turn on a bunch of lights to light up the stage. That might be overkill though, and would take a bit more setup.

Kind of curious about how you control tempo too... I never considered that. I've never used tap tempo. In the past it caused a clicking sound to come though my monitors, so I turned off "send tempo" on my Axe. I pre set all of my delay's and since we are on a click they match up. But how are you using that feature? Sorry for all the questions, but you sound like you are doing just what I am trying to do. Between you and Chris, I've gotten just what I needed, and I got it quick too. Long live the Fractal Forum!

 

[Pinkycramps]

Aaand one more question Van... to use the MFC with Ableton, do you have to run Midi Translator? I have found that with the GCPro I do have to have the Bome software. If you can do it without with MFC, I'm going that way.

 

[vangrieg]

First, no need to apologize for asking questions - isn't that what forums are for? If I don't feel like answering or don't know what to say or too busy, I'll just do other things.

do you have to run Midi Translator

I have no idea what it is. Why would I need to run anything in between?

I'd love to hear more about how you use your MFC to play Ableton, and how you are using Ableton in general. How many MFC switches did you dedicate to Ableton? Just one, to mimic the return key? (Select next scene on launch) I have an MFC extension that could be handy for this... I was thinking Start, stop all clips, scene up, scene down.

In general, I use Ableton currently for backing tracks and switching effects on my AFX when it's needed to be done at exact moments in a song. In such songs, Ableton also sends click track to the drummer, obviously. Since our other guitar player recently got an AFX, and our bass player will use it as well, I plan too hook everything to MIDI and switch everything from Ableton, which includes also the keys and a vocal processor for our lead singer so that foot controllers are there just for fallback. Will see how well this works.

I currently use just one MFC switch, it's in toggle mode and works as "Launch current scene" when on and "Stop all clips" when off. "Select next scene" is a global preference, so I don't use that. Initially, I used the switch to just launch scene, but then in a song with a big tempo change in the middle I needed to stop the track for the slow part and then launch the next scene - unfortunately, tempo change in Session view is a tricky business, and I haven't figured out how to do it well yet. I think I tried to use more switches but found that trying to do too many things distracts me too much, so in general I'm moving in the opposite direction, trying to automate as many things as I can, so that my Ableton instance becomes the master device and a band "director" of sorts.

Kind of curious about how you control tempo too... I never considered that. I've never used tap tempo. In the past it caused a clicking sound to come though my monitors, so I turned off "send tempo" on my Axe. I pre set all of my delay's and since we are on a click they match up. But how are you using that feature?

I don't use MFC or AFX for setting any tempos. If I remember correctly, the MIDI implementation chart for these devices states that neither can send MIDI clock, they can only act as slaves. I'm not sure what you refer to as "send tempo". So it's Ableton that is the master tempo device here. I tried to map MFC's tap tempo switch to Ableton's tap tempo button but it never worked for some reason. Since I don't need it much, I gave up quickly and didn't investigate it much.

As to why I do it - well, to use one preset for several songs and automatically sync delays to current tempo was one reason, but that's not too important. The main reason to set it up this way was because in one song I needed to change arpeggiator patterns every first and third measure. The thing is, AFX doesn't sync to downbeats, so it doesn't know when to start something, it just syncs to tempo, and it wasn't enough. So I had to program that in Ableton. When I did, I thought, why not also change scenes for clean, rhythm and solo parts? So I did that. And then I thought, why not also select the correct preset at the start of the song? So I did that too, and got a fully automated preset/scene switching for that song. Played it this way in a couple of gigs, and loved it - it makes it much easier to concentrate on music, move around the stage freely, and so on. I'm a little scared to do away with the foot controller altogether though, and only have a couple of songs programmed this way, but certainly plan to expand this practice and control all devices from one place, automated.

Lastly, that clicking sound with tap tempo is easy to fix. It is caused by your MIDI and audio cables lying together, so MIDI signals cause interference. There are two things that need to be done to avoid it. First, use well-shielded MIDI cables. Second, make sure they are separated from each other. And when they do need to be close, make sure they cross each other perpendicularly, not lying in parallel.

 

[Pinkycramps]

Cool, and thanks. Yep. We are doing a lot of the same things. I am setting up to control my presets, scene changes, voiceworks+, Roland V drums presets, and a DMXIS lighting controller all automatically from Live.

As for the Midi Translator, I've read and been told that Live doesn't read Program Change messages, and only has CC's available in certain ranges. For whatever reason, with a GCpro, you need the Midi translator to convert the hex code messages it sends out into midi notes so Live can work with them. If the MFC works natively, I'm going to use that. I do feel the need to have a stop button, and the ability to move through tracks though, just in case someone gets off or something breaks in the middle of a song.

 

[Moke]

I'm doing it using Ableton live 9 through midi-over-USB.

 

[vangrieg]

As for the Midi Translator, I've read and been told that Live doesn't read Program Change messages, and only has CC's available in certain ranges.

Like I said, I really prefer, after some trial and error, to have Live as a master preset switcher. So I don't send much to it. I'm not sure about PCs, but you're right about the limited range of CCs, it reads up to 119, I think.

I do feel the need to have a stop button,

But I do have a stop function by using my launch switch in toggle mode. On = Launch, Off = stop. And since these actions are quantized, double tap = Launch next scene immediately.

I think I tried scene select as well, but that didn't work very well. I mean, technically it works, but you don't get any visual confirmation and don't see which scene is selected as a result. This makes me nervous at gigs, so I dumped the idea.

 

[Moke]

I think I tried scene select as well, but that didn't work very well. I mean, technically it works, but you don't get any visual confirmation and don't see which scene is selected as a result. This makes me nervous at gigs, so I dumped the idea.

My MFC reflects the scene changes sent from Ableton...............Did you have 'Total Sync' on?

 

[vangrieg]

My MFC reflects the scene changes sent from Ableton...............Did you have 'Total Sync' on?

No, I use my MFC in Song Mode. Just to make sure there's no confusion - MFC does show AFX scene changes, but it doesn't show which Ableton scene is selected. I guess in Total Sync mode you'll see the current preset.

 

[Pinkycramps]

I've never have never used song or set mode myself until now. I never saw a benefit to it.
My system is one preset per song (even though many of them are identical presets). This gives me the name of what I'm dong on my MFC as an added benefit. It's like a real time setlist in front of me. I use Preset Manage in A.E. to set up each show in order. Bank size zero.. page up to next song, scenes always on for me without recall.

Now that I'm thinking about it, this might change when since I'm putting the presets in Ableton. I'll probably want static preset numbers for each song that stay with them in LIVE so that I can just move them around in LIVE without reprograming and renumbering... hmm...

And I hear you about blindly selecting Live scenes. I thought about that too, and I have this hairbrained idea of installing a small monitor screen if front of me, maybe in front of my pedal board so I can see the Ableton screen while I control it with my Ground Control. Don't know if I'll do that or not, since it seems like a hassle, but I don't like not having visibility of what is happening or coming up next. I don't like surprises on stage so much. It would be sort of a teleprompter or show control visual for me. I should/could give this to the engineer,(and in fact I may, and have the laptop with him with me having long range midi control of it) but I'm a control freak and I like to be the one triggering what happens next and when.

 

[vangrieg]

I'll probably want static preset numbers for each song that stay with them in LIVE so that I can just move them around in LIVE without reprograming and renumbering...

That was one of the reasons why I chose this way of using my MFC. There are ways to remap things, but they complicate matters, and I just don't want to have additional layers of things in something that needs to be rock solid.

I thought about that too, and I have this hairbrained idea of installing a small monitor screen if front of me, maybe in front of my pedal board so I can see the Ableton screen while I control it with my Ground Control.

If you do find a good solution, please let me know, I thought about that too. On the other hand, I just recently moved everything from my pedalboard to the rack to only have one XLR cable connecting the two, without the need to have another power adapter, cables etc.

One way to solve it would be some sort of a cue track announcing what is selected and ready to play in Ableton since I use IEMs. But I can't avoid the feeling that I'm complicating things too much. After all, glancing at the laptop isn't that big of a deal.

Or I could ask the drummer to take care of all this stuff. He has plenty of things to mount an iPad on.

 

[Pinkycramps]

Funny you mention a que track. I am using them (building them right alongside the MFC midi track per song.) I got a set of ques from www.loopcommunity.com
I used this as the resource:

I'm not a worship band player, but these guys are Ableton pro's and have great resources for stuff like this. The ques make it really easy to incorporate new songs quickly, since we have "training wheels" on as a band, and we don't get lost as long as we each know the song sections. Since we have a digital board any everyone has their own mix, if one of they guys doesn't like the cues, he can just pull them out.
For the song title, I just record my voice saying the song name and insert the wave at the beginning of each track. The only problem is you won't hear the title until you press "play", so that doesn't fix the blind issue. I'm thinking the laptop on top of my rack might work just fine.

I am making each songs track in it's own Ableton set in arrangement view, and then dragging those into my master show set in session view. I am just finding that easier for building synth tracks, midi clips, warping crap, and all of that stuff. It's been a HUGE learning experience.

I'm discovering I still don't need song mode... since Ableton has basically made my Axe and MFC random access. It can call up any preset at any time, which is really cool. I'm not going to need to to go into Axe Manage and move things around anymore.

AND... I'm also discovering what you meant about using the mouse in Live to draw in CC envelopes. That is a bit of a pain, but the end result is just awesome. I love watching my scenes just change right on time without me having to do anything! The programing is taking a long time though.

Can't wait to get all of this done! I'm going to post a "rig rundown" of it when it's all complete with how it works and all that. Been wanting to for a while, and finally getting close...

 

[vangrieg]

I'm not a worship band player, but these guys are Ableton pro's and have great resources for stuff like this.

Yeah, I've seen that site, thought to come back if I decide to use cue tracks. We just recently moved to IEMs, and it's just for two out of four band members, so I didn't have enough time to try that yet.

The only problem is you won't hear the title until you press "play", so that doesn't fix the blind issue.

Actually, I think there IS a way to fix it with cue tracks. There's an automation script for Ableton called ClyphX. It can do a lot of things and, apart from some learning curve in terms of syntax, is very easy to use. You just put commands in the beginning of any clip's name. It helps overcome some limitations of Ableton. I initially used it to handle tempo change in session view - you can break a song into several scenes but then you need to launch those scenes, and it doesn't happen automatically. So, long story short, you can have a clip that says the name of the song and then stops Ableton waiting for input. The only reason why I say I THINK it can work is that I still haven't found a simple way to just SELECT a scene without launching it. I can use MIDI commands to do it (after all, this script emulates a control surface), but hope there's a simpler method. If you just have one scene per song you can make these control clips very long and have a command to launch next scene at the end. So it'll essentially announce to you the name of the next scene and wait. Then when you stop it, it'll launch the announced song. It's a kludge, so I bet there's a better method.