Buying and using full range speakers: A few basics

[LMO]

Just because I had one handy, I've been using an ART 310a with my Ultra. I have a favorite preset that I've been tweaking for a while, and I like the way it sounds on the 310a. However, if I do something as simple as laying the 310a down as a monitor rather than upright, the sound changes totally (mostly due to reduced bass coupling with the floor) and I don't like the preset at all. It also sounds quite different on my studio monitors, which I couldn't conveniently connect to my Ultra until recently.

Probably I should be dialing in my presets on the studio monitors to start with, instead of counting on some arbitrary coloration from the 310a. Then I need something that is more accurate for performances, whether that means compensating for the response of the 310a or purchasing something else that is more accurate. Fortunately I have a lot of time to educate myself on this, especially since there are a lot of conflicting opinions here on the forum.

I do understand why people like the 310a; it is pretty easy to create presets that sound good with this speaker.

[boltrecords]

i think some people may be misunderstanding what im getting at. i was thinking that dialing in a tone on the atomic FRFR speaker would cause my direct tone to a live board to be a lot similar.
i would think that dialing in patches in on a regular guitar cab and then plugging the axe fx direct would cause my live direct tone to be way off from what i originally dialed in. mainly because the speakers and amp setups are so different.
i do understand that even when using a FRFR speaker as my main cab the sound will still be a little different when plugging direct, all speakers are different. i get that. but it should at least be close. if nothing less, i would the expect it to be closer than it would be if i mic'd my guitar cab.

My main goal here is get my patches to sound the same through a live pa as they do when im dialing them in. whats the best solution for this besides plugging direct to the venue board and creating my patches right in the venue through the pa. LOL

[JJunkie]

Hi bolt,

Yes you are correct - PA speakers are not far from FRFR speakers. If you dial in patches using studio monitors, or even a home Hi Fi system (with flat EQ), they should translate reasonably well to PA.

BUT the tone you get may be different, if you set your patches up at lower volume levels than what you use in a live situation. Thats to do with the human ear's response, which varies at different volume levels. The bass and ~4k high frequency generally becomes more noticeable the louder you go. Look up the Fletcher-Munson effect in google.

So you still may need to make some global EQ adjustment during soundcheck, no matter what setup (FRFR or guitar cabs) you use.

BTW: I dont play live - just record direct, so others with more experience may know better.

[LMO]

From what I've been able to find, the Atomic is presented as a full range speaker, but no specs are given for frequency response. Since I have not had the opportunity to work with one, I want to be clear that I have no value add to offer other than pointing out what has been written and what I conclude from that. Since the typical frequency response spec for moderately priced PA cabs seems to be around +/- 10 dB, and the typical spec for the next step up in price seems to be +/- 3 dB, how do you evaluate a speaker that does not provide a spec other than "full range?" While there is more to evaluating a speaker cab than frequency response graphs, the model that gets the most positive reviews, the FBT Verve series, also happens to have the flattest FR curve I've seen at that price range.

My conclusion based on a lot of comments on the forum is that the Atomic doesn't really fit into the FRFR class. If you want to sound pretty much the same FOH as you do when you are dialing in your presets, then my current thinking is that you need to be working with a speaker cab that is more accurate than the FOH system. The FOH sound engineer will be able to adjust his system to sound good given a source that was created on a flat reference system, but he is not likely to be able to recreate the specific coloration of something else. Does that make sense to anyone?

[prometh]

But you can give the sound engineer your "de-Atomic" EQ curve to reset it back to flat. He can then go from there if need be.

From what I have heard, the FBT Verves do not have the same punch and feeling as the Atomics.

[LMO]

But you can give the sound engineer your "de-Atomic" EQ curve to reset it back to flat.

I'm still puzzling this whole thing out in my mind, but here's my second (forum rules prohibit posting my original) reaction to your suggestion...

So, in the four band EQ that he has to work with in your channel strip, you not only want the engineer to make sure you fit in the mix, you also want him to match your sound, that's he never heard, by describing how your reference varies from a flat EQ? Did I get that right? That's assuming you actually get to talk to the engineer during the five minutes he is frantically assigning faders, setting levels, and making basic adjustments before you start your set. No problem.

What is currently influencing my thinking are some comments by Scott Peterson, who reports good results with setting up his presets using studio monitors and then using them unaltered in performance situations. IIRC he also uses a couple of different FBT Verves depending on venue.

I just don't know yet about the punch and feeling thing. When I finally got my 5D6 Bassman preset just right it suddenly "felt" like I was playing the actual amp (which I was switching back and forth from using an expression pedal), rather then hearing myself playing an amp through speakers. But this was at relatively low volumes (volume set at 7/11 on the Bassman), and I work with clean presets. I've never really gigged at the levels that some of you guys use, so I don't miss feeling the power chords kick my pants. Maybe it's a style thing; I wonder if most of the guys here who prefer guitar cabs are into high gain stuff?

[prometh]

Just give him a piece of paper with:

2k: +3.5dB
4k: -3.5dB
8k: -6dB

or use the fx loop with a graphic eq... or split out to another equalizer before going to FOH

[zslane]

I've never really gigged at the levels that some of you guys use, so I don't miss feeling the power chords kick my pants. Maybe it's a style thing; I wonder if most of the guys here who prefer guitar cabs are into high gain stuff?

I think it is prevalent in any style where it needs to be (excessively) loud to be considered "legit". It seems that all standard audio notions regarding signal/noise ratios are incompatible with most forms of live performance in which "pushing lots of air" is a stylistic imperative.

[Sixstring]

You're mixing your fruit here. The Verve has flat frequency response, but the Atomic does not. Try tweaking a patch on your Atomic and then listen to it through studio monitors, or vice versa. As I understand it, the Atomic is the sort of flat solution for those who want to use a guitar cab without giving up on using cabs inside of the AxeFx. See Another atomic powered speaker question..

There is an older thread (a year or so) where Tom posted that the Reactor is just as flat or more flat then most of the FR solutions that are talked about on this board including the Verve.

I use to own the Reactor and can say that it sounds very natural and is a "closer" representation of what the Axe sims can do when compared to the Verve. As to the specs, At that time when I spoke with Tom about it he said he had his reasons as to why he did not want to publish them.

[byce_pryah]

Greeting all! First post from a soon to be Ultra owner. I am a bassist exclusively and will be using this with my rig. Now, I read through this whole thread and it still didn't answer my question about how best to implement the Ultra into my signal chain. I have an AMPEG SVT4-PRO head which is a stereo head with a lot of balls. I run this into an AccuGroove Whappo Jr. and AccuGroove 2x10 which are both full range cabinets. (Whappo Jr: 12" Sub, 12" Mid, 6" mid and two ferro-fluid dome tweeters .. the 2x10 also has the same 6" and tweeters as the Jr.) These are audiophile quality speaker enclosures with a very flat response. How would everyone recommend that I incorporate the Ultra into my signal chain? I am very happy with my clean sound the way it is but am definitely open to using the sims after some tweaking for my frequency range. There really isn't much information in the bass forum on the site concerning this so I thought I would ask here. In fact, I will basically copy and paste this into that forum to see what my fellow bassists think. Thanks in advance for any help in this matter.

[doha1696]

Working with FRFR speakers, don't you think there are not so many differences between those different cabs that are KSC, EV, JBL, db Technologies, and even Atomic, etc ? I believe that at a serious level of price, they are all excellent choices and you can easily accomodate differences in sound using the inside Axe's settings... It's really difficult to test all those active (or passive) speakers so.....

[Alexander Dunnett]

Wow- so I have been out of the Axe-Fx game for a while. When I was last active it was all about the QSC K series and the FBT Verve series.

Could someone give me a quick rundown, or maybe some links about what is recommended for PA systems these days? I think a good FRFR PA system goes beyond what the Axe-Fx needs to include the needs of drummers, bassists, vocalists, keys, and even DJs.

QSC KW series is apparently just better than the K. Mackie SRM450 get any love? I'm basically looking for the best sounding, most affordable, most portable full range flatish response system out there at the moment. Say a total budget of $8k? $4k would be alot better.

[Hansen]

Just to understand this issue correctly. When playing live I have these options:

1. Connect to a regular cab (turn off cab simulations) and have this miced. This sound will go to the PA. However, this setup does not utilize the full potential of the Axe.
2. Connect to a cab (for your own stage sound) but have a lineout for the PA. Have the sounds dialled in for PA output. Consequently, the stage sound you get will not be the same as the sound in the PA. You will have cab sim. on and still go through a cab.
3. Same as 2 except, skip the cab and bring your own monitor or FRFR cab. And this is suppose to be the best solution?
4. Bring your own cab. Run an FX loop block off of the chain right before the cab sim and then run the loop output to poweramp and cab. Main outputs straight to the board. Seems to be a good solution until I perhaps buy a FRFR cab/monitor?

Any clue on how big proportion of users who use either of these?

[ibbelton]

Don't buy cheap gear.
Do you want to be really frustrated? Buy a budget FRFR powered speaker. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot over and over trying to overcome these basic problems.
1. The high end driver is crispy, brittle, overdone,
If the high end driver isn't smooth you'll endlessly battle the "icepick in the ear" problem on stage and go through hell trying to dial it out without muddying up the sound. IMHO even the JBL prx series, and Mackies from approx the last 7 years have this problem...and it's gets much, much worse with cheap gear.
2. The sonic performance drastically changes at different volumes.
The better the gear, the better it will sound at low AND high volumes, and that is critical for dialing the axe-fx. High quality FRFR speakers make dialing for different volumes A LOT easier. Technically, no speaker sounds the same at low and high volume. And because of that it's never easy to get a guitar patch sounding good at low/high levels. If it's never easy... why in the world make it 10 times harder just to save $200-$300 on a FRFR speaker? You'll spend a couple grand in man-hours trying to compensate for this one fact alone, and if the high end driver isn't high quality, it'll take a lot longer.
3. Frequency separation and balance are poor.
If you wanted to paint a picture, would you close the blinds and turn on a dingy, dim yellow bulb for light, or would you get as much natural ambient sunlight as possible?
With the axe-fx you are painting a sonic picture of a killer tone inside your head. The better your "light" and the cleaner your "canvas", the more accurate the colors will be and the more you will see what you're doing. This is what a high quality FRFR can do for you. There is no substitute for good ears and experience, but a high quality FRFR will make the journey a lot less painful.

What counts as "cheap gear"?
I notices the HD series from Mackie is very popular and seems to be the way to go for many people! I was just about to buy the Mackie HD1221, but now I don't know if I should save up for a Mackie HD1531 instead!
Help?

[MikeyB59]

I just looked up the Mackie HD1531s and a bunch of reviews talked about them breaking down. Sounding great, but being unreliable. I use RCF NX10-SMAs and there are a bunch of people using these and NX12s and being very happy. They're way small, light, sound great and are loud as hell. Not cheap, but worth it from audiopyle.com

[solo-act]

What counts as "cheap gear"?

Anything that creates the three issues you quoted from my post, and/or aren't reliable/don't survive rigors of regular gigging.

Best to audition everything you can and read lots of reviews from professionals. Seek out others who've bought FRFR and check out your rig through their stuff.